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Ca & Scids


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#21 phanilah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:30 PM

Now in Lavendar Foal Syndrome, I know the mare who was the initial SE carrier from which every case I have heard of originated. 3 of her get were carriers and if you don't breed with one of these horses on both sides of the pedigree, you won't get an affected foal.


This is absolutely not correct. LFS is not just an Egyptian thing and assuming you are referencing Moniet El Nefous, she is NOT found is all pedigrees of LFS affected foals. Yes, she is obviously a frequently seen horse in the Bentwood pedigrees...but LFS goes far beyond that program.

While she is "highly suspect" of being a carrier, she is not the "initial" carrier and a pedigree does not require her presence to produce an affected foal.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#22 sheikh rissan

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:00 PM

Being an engineer and logic specialist, I wonder why I should spend $2000 to test for something I have never seen in Egyptians. I'd rather have 12 tons of hay in the barn unless someone can show me that there is a plausible chance of any of my horses having SCIDS. The very only cases I have EVER heard of in Egyptians came from a single group of horses where there was a lawsuit about the heredity of some already. Now Skowronek was a carrier and he was used in Egypt and some have been selling some of his lineage as SE.

Has ANYONE heard of specific horses other than this group within the SE population? Which were these horses?
Has ANYONE has a positive test of those who have tested?
I am older than dirt and I have never heard of one.

Now in Lavendar Foal Syndrome, I know the mare who was the initial SE carrier from which every case I have heard of originated. 3 of her get were carriers and if you don't breed with one of these horses on both sides of the pedigree, you won't get an affected foal. Names can be named here. If they exist in SEs, where are the names?


Pete, when was Skowronek used in Egypt? I have never read this anywhere. Would be really helpful to know. Many thanks
Julia
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Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
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Dam: Baletina bint Inez
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#23 phanilah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:11 PM

Just for clarification, it was Skowronek's son (Registan) who was used in Egypt, not Skowronek. Regardless, the presence of Registan in a pedigree automatically excludes a horse who might otherwise be eligible to be classified as Straight Egyptian.

I have yet to see anything to convince me that Skowronek was a SCID carrier and ultimately, we will never know. What is most important are the horses alive and breeding today, as they are the ones who can have their status confirmed via testing.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#24 Pete

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:18 PM

It was Skowronek get which were used in Egypt and are popular even to today. In fact a lawsuit required that non-asil but WAHO approved "purebloods" like Skowronek line horses had to be able to compete in the same shows in Egypt. This was not a popular decision there.

Beth, can you name one SE horse who is a LFS carrier who was not in the MEN lineage? Just ONE?

#25 phanilah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:25 PM

Beth, can you name one SE horse who is a LFS carrier who was not in the MEN lineage? Just ONE?


Not without breaking confidentiality agreements. But yes - there are several SE horses who have sired/produced LFS affected foals who have NO MEN in their pedigree. There are also several LFS affected foals whose "Egyptian" breeding is minimal and you have to go back many, many generations to find a horse classified as "SE".

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#26 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:02 AM

Beth, without a name and being able to double check, it can only be classified as a rumor. The German stallion had a problem line that likely goes to a false horse. Another German horse has a similar problem. The Enno horses particularly have this problem. Without specifics, the only winner is the testing organization.

#27 phanilah

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:12 AM

Beth, without a name and being able to double check, it can only be classified as a rumor. The German stallion had a problem line that likely goes to a false horse. Another German horse has a similar problem. The Enno horses particularly have this problem. Without specifics, the only winner is the testing organization.


With all due respect, Pete - the LFS information isn't rumor, it is fact based on records that have been made available. But, I'm not going to jeopardize the integrity of the LFS project and break confidentiality, to try to convince you of something that quite honestly, I don't think you will ever accept, and that is fine...that is your choice. However, for the other people reading this thread, it is important for them to understand that some of the comments you are making are not correct.

Re: Shams Sirius - you don't get to decide he isn't really SE. And, you also don't get to de-classify the Deimel horses as being SE either. All of these horse are qualified as being Straight Egyptian based on Pyramid Society requirements. Again, you can either accept it or it not, your choice...but to others reading, it is important that they know that there ARE SE horses who have been tested and reported as being SCID carriers.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#28 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:59 AM

"All of these horse are qualified as being Straight Egyptian based on Pyramid Society requirements.

That is a foolish statement. If the horses' pedigrees are false, they are NOT SE pure and simple. There is ample evidence that suggests this may be true. Moreover, the lack of SCIDS in the closed breeding group could be statistical proof that it is true. But you are not scientific and your mind is made up.

#29 chiron

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:53 AM

Beth, can you name one SE horse who is a LFS carrier who was not in the MEN lineage? Just ONE?



I'm not Beth. but I can name TWO sE mares, without even looking, who do not have Moniet. & Several other NON-E mares (old Crabbet) who are LFS/CCDL,

Back in the day, long before there was a DNA test for SCID (in fact it was just starting to be called CID) a grand daughter of a mare who later produced an affected (S)CID confirmed by Pullman had a foal die at UC Davis of "total immune system failure" the filly was about 80 days old. The stallion was a STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN of well known & un-disputed bloodline. I was much later told of another affected (diagnosed SCID) foal from a domestic mare (lines commonly known to be SCID) by another STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN, again well known & un-disputed line.

Having said that, I will say this. I had muliple presumed SCID carrier mares. Once I started using sE stallions I never lost another foal to "pnemonia". Proves nothing. Both my sE stallions are SCID tested clear AND both are participating in the Cornell LFS/CCDL study along with the rest of my little herd.
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#30 Juniper

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:17 PM

I'm not Beth. but I can name TWO sE mares, without even looking, who do not have Moniet. & Several other NON-E mares (old Crabbet) who are LFS/CCDL,

Back in the day, long before there was a DNA test for SCID (in fact it was just starting to be called CID) a grand daughter of a mare who later produced an affected (S)CID confirmed by Pullman had a foal die at UC Davis of "total immune system failure" the filly was about 80 days old. The stallion was a STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN of well known & un-disputed bloodline. I was much later told of another affected (diagnosed SCID) foal from a domestic mare (lines commonly known to be SCID) by another STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN, again well known & un-disputed line.

Having said that, I will say this. I had muliple presumed SCID carrier mares. Once I started using sE stallions I never lost another foal to "pnemonia". Proves nothing. Both my sE stallions are SCID tested clear AND both are participating in the Cornell LFS/CCDL study along with the rest of my little herd.



Good for you sending sample for the study.

Pete did not even notice it seems that he could participate to the Lavended Foal test development too - FREE - as money seemed to be is excuse for the SCID test. Confidential. You will know about your's status, not other's.

#31 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:58 PM

"You will know about your's status, not other's."

Since there is no current test, no one knows.

As far as the SCIDS comments above, again no names were named. Why am I not surprized?

"I know the sky is falling, some fell upon my head." Ladies, you have become chicken littles.

#32 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:43 PM

Earlier I wrote a nice long post and hit the wrong key and it disappeared never to return. I guess I will try again and add my opinion to the mix. If Straight Egyptian breeders do not test their horses for SCID, it is easy to say it isn't proven that it is there. That is a simple, see no evil approach, but not in the best interests of Arabian breeding. Saying that the few who have proven to be carriers must not be SE due to a pedigree or horse mix-up is just silly. Let's just say that was the case. Who is to say that another "mix-up" or two hasn't also occured? That would mean that these suspect SE's are not the only ones. It is possible that some of our beloved straights standing in our barns right now are not really "straight". Whenever humans are involved, the potential for error exists. If Enno's horses were the product of an inaccuracy somewhere way back down the road, the same can be said for your horse or my horse. We cannot prove ancestry without a doubt. Therefore, it seems the only logical thing to do is test your breeding stock, whether they are considered SE or not.

I personally saw two SE foals that died of antibiotic resistent pneumonia at about 3- 4 months old. There is a strain of pneumonia that could account for this, but no testing was done, either before or after death. The foals just did not respond to treatment. Can anyone say without doubt that these foals were not SCID affected? They weren't tested for SCID because "it doesn't exist in SE's". Maybe it is extremely rare, but without testing, you cannot know the status of an individual horse.

I understand that in these tough economic times, priorities have to be set regarding spending money, and if it was a choice between feeding your horses or testing them for SCID, then of course the correct thing to do is feed them. But if you are so financially strapped that these are your only choices, you should probably refrain from breeding at all, tested horses or not, until your finances are more stable.

My stallion and a couple of my mares are tested clear for SCID. I have a 20 year old mare here, along with her 2 fillies by my stallion, that have not been tested. Even though I probably won't breed the mare back for a foal for me, I intend to get her tested while this special in on with VetGen. If she is clear, that will give her fillies a clear status also, sort of like a 2 for the price of 1.

If you do not wish to test your horses because SCID is rare in SE's, that is your chance to take. But do not discourage others from making a responsible decision to establish the status of their breeding stock.

I have had all of my horses, SE or not, sampled for the LFS study. There is little doubt that a certain mare appears in many of the LFS foals. That mare appears in the pedigrees of many of my horses. That said, I have never had any foal loss here for any reason, genetic or otherwise, but I am not naive enough to think that nothing could be lurking in the DNA. I hope that a test is developed soon, as that would be a great management tool for planning breedings. If there is a way to avoid a doomed foal, that has to be a good thing, doesn't it?

DJ Sheldon
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#33 chiron

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:23 PM

:th_roflol: HAPPY DANCE :th_party0010:

Extremely well put DJ SHELDON...a voice of reason....are you one of the "chicken little", 'Intuitive" females or are you male so ol' Pete might listen to you????

PETE how dare you say Beth is not using "Scientific" reasoning????? You ARE aware of Beth's background, right??
Non Illigiitamus Carborundum

#34 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:36 PM

'Intuitive" females

I'm afraid I fall into this category, so I probably won't sway Pete's thinking at all.

#35 Flying Hooves

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 08:56 PM

as is always the case with this discussion :D

Can we all just agree to disagree? All Arabians may or may not have genetic mutations. Testable mutations have an answer, IF the test results are actually available to others. The other mutations have happened and hopefully we will eventually have tests for them all.

As for Enno, I was not mean, attacking or pushy in anyway prior to his recent visit to se I was in contact via email and the phone with the man before that fiasco. He is worse than Dr. Seuss and provided NO ONE to my knowledge with copies of the tests. I was very professional and cordial and still was presented with riddles. I am NOT going to play games to obain info that should just be provided since he was very open about claiming they were carriers.

Some of you say why should he show anyone the test results? Well some of us say WHY NOT? He already said they were carriers, if true why not show the tests? The foals were necropsied by Dr Enno himself.

If someone tells you their stallion is clear before you breed to him will you take their word?
Lisa Tucker
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#36 phanilah

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 09:49 PM

One final comment before I remove myself from further discussion.

Even if the Deimel horses are removed from the equation, there is still Shams Sirius. And until someone can PROVE that his pedigree is incorrect and he isn't really SE, he is currently a qualified SE horse who has been tested as a SCID carrier and reported as such by his registry.

All it takes is one to indicate the mutated allele is present in the population (even if its occurence is extremely low) and until much more extensive testing is done within the SE bloodlines, there is no way of reasonably calculating the carrier rate within the SE breeding group.

On that note, have at it. Life is too short to keep hashing this out.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#37 Demelza

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:16 AM

Sorry Lisa I didn't mean to imply you were "on the attack" in any way, cos I know you're not like that... just that if Enno didn't trust you (and he pretty much trusts nobody) he won't give you the answers. I think, after the initial debate back in 2003 or whenever it was, he assumes everyone is out to get him.

Just to clarify - he won't show the test results of the original carriers because he doesn't have the documents (Alex did) - here's a quote: "Actually I've never seen the test results of my primary carriers, It was Alex who ordered the tests and he then told me about the results. But I have tested -- in (presumed) knowledge of those results some of our later offspring -- and there's (unfortunately) nothing to prove those initial tests wrong."

Anyway, I think Beth is right - regardless of what anyone thinks of Enno and his horses, there's still Shams Sirius and while the PS accepts that horse as SE, then SCID has to be accepted as part of the genepool. No big deal - it's entirely manageable and to keep it in perspective, alot easier to deal with than trying to breed out clubbed feet or other serious conformation problems!

as is always the case with this discussion :D

Can we all just agree to disagree? All Arabians may or may not have genetic mutations. Testable mutations have an answer, IF the test results are actually available to others. The other mutations have happened and hopefully we will eventually have tests for them all.

As for Enno, I was not mean, attacking or pushy in anyway prior to his recent visit to se I was in contact via email and the phone with the man before that fiasco. He is worse than Dr. Seuss and provided NO ONE to my knowledge with copies of the tests. I was very professional and cordial and still was presented with riddles. I am NOT going to play games to obain info that should just be provided since he was very open about claiming they were carriers.

Some of you say why should he show anyone the test results? Well some of us say WHY NOT? He already said they were carriers, if true why not show the tests? The foals were necropsied by Dr Enno himself.

If someone tells you their stallion is clear before you breed to him will you take their word?



#38 Flying Hooves

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 06:25 PM

Exacty D, but to include Enno's horses in a list of known carriers is wrong from a research gathering stand point. Without test proof they are suspected. Shams Sirius was a carrier per his test. Coincidence that one horse appears in his pedigree as well as suspected carriers. People would flip out if I said, Nazeer is common in all the suspected SCID SE carriers therefore he was a carrier. You know how I feel about blaming an untested horse for passing on a mutation in a testable mutation.

If it is true that Alex did the testing, Heidi would know the answer. Was the test available when those horses left the states??? Did Alex have them SCID tested? where are the tests?

We don't know who the "later offspring" where or who their sires were either. Also, no test results. So as far as we know its all speculation.

You know I am not trying to stir anything up or say SEs cannot possibly have SCID. You just cannot include untested horses or horses without test result proof into a database of carriers when testing is available. The horse's suspected are in another database as just that, suspected. Including horses pre test era.
Lisa Tucker
Flying Hooves Farm

#39 szedlisa

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 06:50 PM

Dont mean to interupt the current thread going on whether scid exists or not within the straight egyptian, but I do have some good news about CA testing which I would like to share:

Testing for the CA Markers is now available in Europe in the Netherlands:

Contact Dr. Van Haeringen Laboratorium b.v.
Visitor address:
Agro Business Park 100 Telephone +31 (317) 416 402
6708 PW Wageningen Fax +31 (317) 426 117
The Netherlands

Mailing address:
P.O. Box 408 E-mail info@vhlgenetics.com
6700 AK Wageningen Internet http://www.vhlgenetics.com
The Netherlands

To order Tests:
http://www.vhlgeneti....php?dsrt=paard

The price of a CA test is 57,50 Euro (excl. 19% VAT).
The invoice with bankdetails, will be sent together with the result.

The test can be done on hairroots. Please send in the hairroots and a sample submissionform, which you can print out from our website. ("Genetic properties')
If you cannot print them please let us know and we will send some sample submissionforms by post.

We do not need an import permit. [from EU countries]

Please let us know, if you have any question left.

Best regards,
Maria Heida
administration
Dr. Van Haeringen Laboratorium BV
P.O. Box 408
6700 AK Wageningen
Tel +31 317 416 402
Fax +31 317 426 117
www.vhlgenetics.com

#40 szedlisa

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 07:22 PM

CA does exist in the straight egyptian and individuals proven as carriers by being parents of hisopathically diagnosed foals are being disclosed publically. Names have been permitted to be added to the Public List at http://cerebellarabi...astatuslist.htm

As for scid in the straight egyptian , anyone who has a datasouse subscription could easily ascertain the identity of the horses discussed by Dr. Enno Deimel when he posted at the sE form. There were only "x" number of horses imported to europe ( Austria in fact) within the stated time period. Although he did not give the registered names he was quite clear as to who they were.

SHAMS SIRIUS (Mayron I x Shams Saskia) carrier stallion, now gelded. Only sE reported as a SCID Carrier besides Dr. Enno Deimel 's Egyptian arabians.
SHAMS EL SAAYDA , carrier dam of Dr. Enno Deimel 's Egyptian arabians.
SAHIERA - 86gm (Ibn Jamil x Shams El Saayda), carrier mare, Dr. Enno Deimel
SCHARIA - 81gm (Hatef x Shams El Saayda), carrier mare, Dr. Enno Deimel
SAYTARA - 85gm (Mameluck x Shams El Saayda), carrier mare, Dr. Enno Deimel
SALADIN - 95gs (Qursaan x SAHIERA ), carrier stallion, all 6 horses tested in 1999
SAFRA - 99gm (SALADIN x Saytara ) deceased scid foal, all 6 horses tested in 1999

Believe me, breeding horses is not a simple "lets have our pablem served on a silver spoon" affair.
Any desktop breeder who wants to moan is more than welcomed to....I personally prefer the insights of those who have done their research and are willing to share their experiences.

The genetic combination of genes is so immence at the point of the random selecton during conception , that it is no wonder that many breeders have not had either scid or ca foals nor even seen them...no matter how long they have been breeding arabians. Most programs are based on a small number of foundation stock and the careful selection within that group to further improve the bloodlines according to the goals of the breeder. If that seed stock does not carry the defective gene and future outside selections do not either ( or at least have very limited exposure), affected foals are not likely to appear. It has been estimated that there are over 60,000 possible combinations which can be selected to pass forward at *each* conception. Just how often will one expect to have a defective allele come forward from each parent at the same time?




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