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#101 sheikh rissan

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:28 PM

Thanks Demelza. That bit's a relief for sure

I have seen that a horse very closely bred to Kali is posted as CA N/N... however as we all know, that means zilch, because the actual parents and grandparents are not showing as tested N/N. They COULD be carriers and then it's a roll of the dice alright, with each conception, and I for one do not wish to gamble with foals' lives, or the dreams of mare owners.....Period.


We definitely will find out more about this genetic disorder, as the genome is mapped and the causal links between chromosomes, receptors and downstream signalling... for not only this disorder, but others become better understood/mapped.

I agree, we don't know that much yet about CA, apart from the markers for it, and the pertinent fact that an affected foal/horse can have minor, moderate or severe symptoms of the disorder... from one end of the spectrum to the other. Once we understand more about what influences this disorder at a cellular level THEN perhaps we can take steps to ameliorate symptoms, but until then my personal feeling is that we will simply be masking symptoms and contributing to the carrier/affected pool of genes.

Sorry to sound negative. My job is in Oncology, and I know only too well what translocation of chromosomes, or overexpression of receptors, or even non-degradation of factors (due to a genetic fault) can cause.....

J
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#102 szedlisa

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:40 AM

Hugh writes---Has anyone read the Personal Storys on the www.cerebellar-abiotrophy.org Website ?? I think you all need to read Legendary Breeder - Bazy Tankersleys Story of how she had a Vet. College do an Experiment for her by Breeding a CA Affected Stallion with (5) CA Affected Mares - AND WOUND UP WITH (5) PERFECTLY NORMAL FOALS !!!!!!!!!!!!

So, Bazy doesn't believe it's a simple case of Dominant / Recessive Factors and that something else is going on!! What is that SOMETHING ELSE ???

Hugh,

Just a little clarification here. Bazy´s vet experiment was done when she was in Maryland in the mid 60s at the time when she lost 8% of her foal crop one year and another 6% the following year, resulting in a total of 71 documented pedigrees. This loss was studied and researched by the late Max Sponseller and presented:
Sponseller, Max (1967). "Equine cerebellar hypoplasia and degeneration". Proceedings of the 13th annual convention of the American Association of Equine Practitioners. pp. 123–6.

Later Prof. Dr. M Sponseller´s son researched and presented his senior thesis using his father´s notes as references:
Sponseller, Brett A. A Pedigree Analysis of Cerebellar Cortical Abiotrophy in the Arabian Horse. (Fourth-year seminar paper). Ithaca, NY: College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, 1994.

In 1965, the mode of inheritance for CA ( then called cerebellar hypoplasia) had not been determined. In fact it was not even known then, that it took two horses to be carriers, but rather it was thought that it was a defect of the sire only.

We know now that afffected x affected will never produce a clear/normal foal (N/N).
It will always produce affected foals with expressed clinical signs 100% of the time.(CA/CA).

Edited: Bazy´s terminology of calling these horses "affected" actually should have been "Carriers"...see post by Kimberly below)

Bazy´s 5 perfectly normal looking foals resulting from the cross of her stallion onto her 5 selected mares were all carriers or possibly clears, even though she did not know it then.

Nor apparently was she aware of the autosomal recessive mode of inheritance and the correct terminology when she published "And Ride Away Singing", in 1998 !

But then not many people did. Not even experienced breeders because Ann Bowling´s work in 1985 had not been publíshed. (She established the recessive mode of inheritance with her test herd of 40 head at UC Davis).

Lisa

Edited by szedlisa, 10 February 2010 - 08:25 PM.


#103 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:18 PM

Thank you Lisa for clarifying this. I suspected this experimentation was done years ago when there were a lot of unknowns.

DJ

#104 tstormwing

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:41 PM

May I ask clarification, Lisa? I had believed that Bazy was not using the current accepted terminology, where "affected" means a horse with 2 copies of the CA gene. I had thought the test was done using proven carrier horses, as I couldn't believe that Bazy would have left a stallion (or mares) that were symptomatic alive long enough to reach reproductive age. I simply assumed that the genetic pool played off the odds and gave 5 carrier (N/CA) or clear foals (N/N) from carrier to carrier matings. And all appeared "normal" because there was no way to test for the presence of a CA gene at the time.

If these were truly affected (CA/CA) horses in the test, I don't understand how they could get any carrier foals -- they would all have to have been affected, as one copy of the gene would have come from each parent. There were no "clear" genes to be passed along.

Am I missing something here on the inheritance probability?

Kimberley

#105 szedlisa

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:15 PM

Good spotting Kimberly. It was very late my time last night when I posted. I will edit that post.(Nº104)
Quite right. an affected as we know it today bred to another affected will produce 100% affected foals expressing clinical signs. As Bazy said that all 5 foals appeared normal, then she must have been referring to carrier mares which had already produced affected foals not as carrier mares but as affected mares.

lisa

#106 cioci

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 10:55 PM

I'm pleased to announce, also on behalf of Mr and Mrs Fox of Equinox Arabians (Georgia), that

MAJIID EQ (Shahir x Miss maggie mae) is

CA CLEAR
SCID CLEAR
LFS CLEAR

Vincenzo Pellegrini

Assa egyptian arabians - Italy

Equinox Arabians - Georgia -USA

Attached Files



#107 Demelza

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:03 PM

fantastic news Vince!

#108 Heidi

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:22 PM

Wonderful!

BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#109 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:56 AM

Thanks for posting the test results....congratulations on 3 clear test results. Majiid QE is very beautiful and I wish you well with his babies in the furture.

#110 H Fillmore

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:38 PM

LISA ---- Regarding Bazys Breeding Experiment - Even if she had a Carrier Stallion bred to
(5) Carrier mares - she should have gotten 1.25 AFFECTED Foals(Instead of (0).

Isn't it interesting that most of the CA Affecteds are from locations with Severe Winters - Switz / Germany / Maryland(Bazy) / etc - the Same as the EMND / EDM / EPM Neurological Disorders !!!
(And the same is True for M.S. in Humans). Could it have something to do with the Low Vit E from
Stored foods ?)

- - - Hugh

#111 phanilah

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 10:14 PM

LISA ---- Regarding Bazys Breeding Experiment - Even if she had a Carrier Stallion bred to
(5) Carrier mares - she should have gotten 1.25 AFFECTED Foals(Instead of (0).


NO, that is not how the probabilities work. When breeding two carriers together - statistically there is a 25% probability "at each breeding" of producing an affected foal. It doesn't mean that 1 in every 4 foals will automatically be affected.

It is just like tossing a pair of coins 4 times - a variety of combinations can and do happen...ranging from 4 times all heads, to 4 times all tails, to 4 times head/tail and a variety of combinations between the groups.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#112 szedlisa

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 12:05 AM

All,

I negected to point out that Bazy´s comments about having ataxia in her herd was in the section of her book written in 1990 (even though the book was published in 1998) See post # 104.

And Beth ~ Thanks for explaining yet again about the Medalian Genetic Percentages. It has been hard to get people to understand that the percentages given in all the autosomal recessive charts/diagrams is the Accepted Form of Medallian Mode of Inheritance for a Recessive Gene. In reality they are not what we will actually see in practice. Many a herd has had carrier(s) mares which have never produced an affected foal even though bred to a Carrier stallion. And there are carrier stallions which surely have been bred to carrier mares and not sired affecteds either, although it is far more likely that a very popular stallion bred to many mares will sire the occasional affected.

Previously any genetic disorders were basically kept within a small area as breedings were done only by live cover. Any horse , male or female, whose progeny repeatedly showed some sort of genetic disorder would most likely be removed from the breeding herd. Since the advent of artificial insemination and cooled TS , all genetic disorders are more likely to spread out of the original area. With more and more stallions now offerring Frozen Semen , the spread will widen considerably, jump country borders and oceans. (It already has). Bloodlines that are within Preservation groups and bred exclusively within their bloodline group are more likely to have bred out the genetic disorder just through natural culling, as the clear lines breed forward.

With both Cooled and Frozen TS , semen from popular stallions can be shipped to all corners of the world and in hopes for greater improvement bloodlines have been crossed. With goals to improve the quality of the foals and utilize the best aspects of several bloodlines is where we are finding the greater percentage of new carriers and affecteds.

Just working off of the posted results from the Public List at www.cerebellar-abiotrophy.org which by no means carries all of the test results, based on the first thousand horses disclosed, 14-15% carrier / 2-3 % affected, about double the figures of SCID. The UC Davis figure of 20% carriers shows that there is a 5% gap between disclosed and undisclosed horses. That is 25% that does not disclose the results. Hopefully that 25% can be reduced as more and more breeders and owners become educated about CA and are willing to disclose.

Carriers can be delt with. Affecteds can´t.

Lisa

#113 sheikh rissan

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 08:05 AM

Good morning

I am most happy to report that the full set of results from Van Haeringen Laboratorium BV Netherlands is now in; so

Kalinin ibn Baletina Sire: Kais (Pakistan/Proba)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez (Balaton/Indirah bint Inez)

Is SCID N/N (No Carrier)
AND CA N/N (No Carrier)

As previously mentioned, VHL state these results as NO CARRIER and give the following explanation:

NO CARRIER: The animal is free and has two healthy alleles. When used in breeding, this animal will not become ill due to the disease. It cannot spread the disease in the population
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#114 Demelza

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 10:48 PM

Yay for Kali!

#115 abbasiyah

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 12:48 AM

Bassel Al Rayyan (Ashhal Al Rayyan x Dana Al Rayyan) CBA 2300 N/N CLEAR :bigemo_harabe_net-109:
Judi Parks
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http://www.AlAbbasiyah.com
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#116 Seglavi

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:58 PM

Bassel Al Rayyan (Ashhal Al Rayyan x Dana Al Rayyan) CBA 2300 N/N CLEAR :Ray:

Congratulations Judi, I truly know what a relief it is to know!
Pam Studebaker
Saqlawiyat Arabians
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#117 smj

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 09:16 AM

We're also very happy to announce the results on all our breeding stock including our presious SE stallion RA Relaks, whos tested CA FREE :PerspectMA19366318-0001:)) And also two of our broadmare's smj Shai Simona by * Simeon Shai and Petronika by Pers PL infoal to * Echao ......We're so happy and relived, bout the results.

Here's the results :

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for Jasmine(CBA2489):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for Delayah(CBA2490):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for smj Shai Simona(CBA2491):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for Moana Shaklana(CBA2492):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for Petronika(CBA2493):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

CEREBELLAR ABIOTROPHY results for RA Relaks(CBA2494):

N/N - Normal: horse does not possess markers associated with CA

Best wishes
Hanne.....
smj arabians.com
Home of SE stallion RA Relaks & Millenium Jamaal US

www.smjarabians.com

#118 szedlisa

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:32 PM

There have been some changes at the CA website
www.cerebellar-abiotrophy.org

Due to the amount of entries and space available on even this excellent band width, the CA Status List has been redesigned into two sections:

MAIN LIST with all entries posted in the order received: Horse Name + Identification + Status
CARRIER /AFFECTED LIST in alphabetical order with Horse Name + Identification + Status.

SEARCH OPTIONS remain the same on both pages:
- Use search box provided at top of each page for a page search.
- Right click on entry without number and do a Google Search. This usually brings up website / farm name / owner or breeder info.

Please note the following important additions:
ADDITTIONAL DEFAULT DERIVED CA STATUS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BREEDING CHART:
Only owners of horses have the option to submit and publish two default CA derivatives under their own responsibility:
- "CA: Clear by parentage" - for a foal of which both parents are tested CA N/N CLEAR
- "CA: CARRIER by default (I)" - for a parent of a CA: CA/CA AFFECTED foal
- "CA: CARRIER by default (II)" - for a parent of a CA: N/CA CARRIER foal of which the other parent is CA: N/N CLEAR

The CA Marker Scanning Test was officially launched in September 2008. Horses tested by this method and those horses clinically diagnosed with a necropsy prior to this date are designated by the symbols N/N Clear, N/CA CARRIER or CA/CA AFFECTED where applicable. Horses which were vet diagnosed based on clinical signs but not clinically diagnosed with a post mortum microscopic study (Histopathic) are termed simply AFFECTED.

Thank you,
Lisa

#119 shall

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    Khidron
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Posted 16 March 2010 - 11:31 AM

Looks like there is a form on the site for sending in test results for both parents and you can receive documentation back that your horse is not a carrier. It's a good idea and should save some money.

Hello Tracy,
Yes we will test all of our hoses mares,stallion, foals even if both parents are negative(I am really anal about having the paper showing all of our horses are Clear or Carries).
Shannon and Marie


Sakher+ 2009 HAHR/RPSI gelding, Sinatra Song x Anabelle EFS
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Anabelle EFS 2004 SE mare, Shahir IASB x Thee Debutante
Khidron 2001 SE gelding, Hawkeye CC x Lady Minstril

#120 szedlisa

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 01:26 PM

Looks like there is a form on the site for sending in test results for both parents and you can receive documentation back that your horse is not a carrier. It's a good idea and should save some money.



Shall,

If you are referring to the CA Website at www.cerebellar-abiotrophy.org, all we do is point out that both sire and dam have had results submitted which say they are N/N Clear. This information is available to any one who views the Main List onsite and uses the search box to find if a horse is listed or not.

If you are referring to contacting UC Davis´s VGL lab and Dr. Penedo that is a completely different story. THAT would be considered documentation.

A fine point but best to have it clarified.

If any owner wants to have the documentation that a horse has been tested then they should send in samples to UC Davis for testing and will receive the test results directly both by email and a hard copy if both options are selected.

Lisa




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