Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

SCID and the SE as well as other genetic issues


  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

#1 Flying Hooves

Flying Hooves

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Middle Tennessee

Posted 19 February 2009 - 01:06 AM

Always impressed by a forum that is open about these issues :1233_hand_clapping: Thank you Heidi.

Hello Everyone,

Those of you that do not know me, my name is Lisa Tucker. I am a researcher as well as a breeder.

For some time, like many people, I was under the impression that SEs did not have any genetic issues. It's what I was told. I then began to research those claims and boy was I awakened.

Not only are SEs affected by SCID they also have been found to have CA, LFS, JES and GPT just for starters. While there are only tests for SCID and CA, there is scientific evidence showing LFS, JES and GPT are genetically passed on.

It is no longer a question of purity or blacklisting horses and owners who fully disclose these issues. It is time we all step up, participate in the research and accept that ALL Arabians may have these problems.

I have a support and information group on yahoo. Feel free to join to read our progress and announcements: http://pets.groups.y...m/group/SCIDSE/

I will also be posting lots of information and eventually a database via my homepage www.flyinghoovesfarm.com/SE_genetics.htm

Since this forum is welcoming my presence, I will be making announcements here as well.

I ask you all to please assist me in this huge undertaking in gathering data on Straight Egyptian horses. I am also collecting data on all Arabians and my information is for everyone.

If you have a horse that has be affected by any of the known genetic mutations or if you have had your horses SCID or CA tested please contact me. Your information is 100% confidential unless you grant me permission to use your information.

Any questions? Just ask!!

Thank you
Lisa Tucker
lisa@flinghoovesfarm.com
Lisa Tucker
Flying Hooves Farm

#2 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:03 PM

I want to express my gratitude to egyptianbreeders.com for giving the genetic issues threads a prime position so that they can be easily viewed by all members. Well done!

#3 marketing

marketing

    Advanced Member

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Location:Heidi in Mineral Point Wi

Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:42 PM

Your Welcome, it took all of a minute :th_party0010:
SAHARA CYPRYSS 1995 Chestnut mare
BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
MALIK AL AASIF 2007 Grey Colt
SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse
<!--sizeo:4--><!--/sizeo-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->Heidi<!--sizec--><!--/sizec--><!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->
Triple H farm

#4 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:31 PM

I have a theory about how SCID came about within the SE gene pool and I was wondering if there have been any other SE horses tested as a carrier that do not have the known line to the Eno mare.?????
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#5 marketing

marketing

    Advanced Member

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Location:Heidi in Mineral Point Wi

Posted 20 February 2009 - 08:55 PM

Could you tell us that theory?
SAHARA CYPRYSS 1995 Chestnut mare
BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
MALIK AL AASIF 2007 Grey Colt
SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse
<!--sizeo:4--><!--/sizeo-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->Heidi<!--sizec--><!--/sizec--><!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc-->
Triple H farm

#6 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:19 PM

Okay...if you are sure..???

It is pretty much a given that SCID started at Crabbet Park and was spread all over the world by some pretty fantastic horses. In the search that I have done of known SCID producers, one name is in every pedigree. It is a mare that produced 16 foals that were exported all over the world, including Egypt.

The horse that went to Egypt in 1920 is not recorded as the sire of any foals but was used at the RAS Stallion Stations scattered all over Egypt to service local mares. Many of these mares were of bloodlines from the RAS as they sold horses to the locals every year.

My theory is that this stallion bred a unrecorded Arabian mare and sired a carrier. There is proof in Egypt as they kept records of the stallions at the depots.

Over the years, a few horses were exported out of Egypt with pedigrees that later were found to be incorrect. I suspect that this one mare, possibly others, has an incorrect pedigree.

I do want to say that the stallion from Crabbet Park that I am refering to would be considered a Straight Egyptian today as his parents are both SE by the PS definition. So this is not a purity issue in any way.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#7 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:44 PM

Hi PAS,
What is the "proof" of SCID that you speak of in Egypt? The SCID test was not publicly available until 1997. Do you have proof of pedigree mix-ups? I have heard the theory before, Hansi Melnyck speaks of it often, but even she admits she has not proof of this theory. Have you read this speculative article written by Peter Wright? I'm interested to see if it correlates with your theory. It was published in various magazines:

C.I.D. An Assessment of its Significance to the Arabian Horse and a Speculation about its Origin. by P. A Wright CBE MA (1980)
Introduction
COMBINED Immuno-Deficiency, C.I.D., become a very emotive subject in the Arabian Horse world. The cause of this is that its significance to the breeders of Arabian horses has not been assessed. Neither has any attempt been made to discover where it came from nor has any explanation been offered why, if the disease is inherited by transmission of a simple recessive gene, it is still with us. Ignorance always causes alarm and despondency. Val Males' excellent articles on the inheritance of C.I.D. have helped breeders to understand their risks from one generation to the next when they have or use identified carriers. But they do not (and were not intended to) answer the questions posed above.
I admit that I have been guided in my analysis by private knowledge of the identity of certain horses which are proven C.I.D. carriers. However, I will not reveal the identity of these horses or a number of others which, if my analysis is correct, are almost certainly carriers. My hope is that as a result of breeders reading this article, they will lose their fear of C.I.D. and make available any information to further the investigation of the subject and to enable people to breed Arabian horses to minimise the effect of the disease. I also hope that it will stop the witch hunting that has tended to develop because of the fear of C.I.D.
The Data Base for the Analysis
The last three volumes of the British Arab Stud Book are in the same format as Wetherby's Thoroughbred Stud Book Each volume is based on the registered mares whose breeding performance has been returned to the Arab Horse Society over a period of four years. All the mares are listed in alphabetical order and for each of the four years it is stated whether she was barren or slipped her foal, whether the foal was born dead or if it died before it was named at 41/2 months or the foal's sex and name if it survived to be named at 41/2 months. It also states the name of the stallion which covered her.
The stud book also has a list of all stallions used in the four years of the book and their live named produce together with their dams. It is therefore possible to list all stallions and mares that have had foals die between birth and 41/2 months. This has been done for the years l966-1977. This is the data base for the analysis which follows.
General Analysis
Table I immediately shows that infertility is very much more important than deaths, due to any cause, of foals up to 41/2 months of age. When one takes into account the last column, which is probably the percentage loss due - -C.I.D. based upon U.S. findings. infertility is nearly 8 times as important as C.I.D. Much of this infertility can be shown to be genetic.
The last column of Table I produce an apparent mystery. The original work of Studdert et al on the incidence of C.I.D. at Hawksbury Agriculture College, N.S.W., showed with a reason able degree of certainty that the C.I.D gene is a simple recessive. This has been strongly confirmed by the work of Dr Lance Perryman of Washington State University, U.S.A. Using a stud of 1 carrier stallion and 26 carrier mares. he has, over three years, produced 53 foals . Of these, 15 (28%) have died of C.I.D eight being fillies and seven colts. This appears to be conclusive that the C.I.D gene is a simple recessive without sex linkage. Why then does the probable incidence of C.I.D. in the U.K. over the last twelve years stay more or less constant? C.I.D. was probably intro duced by the imports of 100 years, ago. With random mating it should have virtually dissappeared. The only conclusion one can arrive at is that the mating has not been random but that there is a connection between the desirable genes of the Arabian horse and C.I.D. This is emphasised even more when one takes into account that Arabian breeding in Britain is really like one vast stud, as most breeders, even the leading ones, use a range of stallions, most of which are not their own.
If, however, we examine the performance of the most popular stallions defined by those stallions that sired 20 or more live foals at birth, the picture is entirely different.
Table III shows that 76 stallions or 12% of the total stallions used sired 55.5% of the live foals born. They also lost 55% of the foals that died.
Comparing Table IV with Table III, we can see the marked difference between the popular stallions and the rest. 74% of the popular stallions lost foals whereas only 16% of the rest did.
Is C.I.D. a simple recessive gene?
At first sight, Table I suggests that the C.I.D. gene cannot be a simple recessive and yet the researches into specific studs show it to be. If however, we consider how selection for breeding in the U.K. is actually carried out, it is possible to see a way out of the difficulty. If the pedigree which introduced C.I.D. to the U.K. 80- 100 years ago also produced characterČistics which resulted in breeders selecting for horses incorporating this line, it could result in the maintenance of C.I.D. Now in England, as in many other countries, mares have been and are in short supply (hence their price!). So rigid selection only really occurs on the male side. This does not, of course, occur in individual studs, particularly the top ones which select their mares with care, but overall most mares retained in the U.K. are bred from. It is possible to show that the ratio of non-carrier mares to carrier mares can remain constant from generation to generation if we allow the ratio of carrier stallions to be higher than the ratio for the mares and is suitably adjusted. This is not the place to discuss the mathematics of the situation, but if we assume that 27% of all the mares are carriers, we find that for % mare carriers to remain constant the stallion carrier % must be 36%. Furthermore, for the figures given in Tables III and IV, the number of foal deaths due to C.I.D. will be 144, which is 55% of all foal deaths, thus agreeing nicely with the U.S. estimates for % C.I.D. foal deaths. It also means that about 230 of the 644 stallions are carriers.
Only 147 have actually lost foals, but we note from Table IV that 568 stallions have only had an average of 5 3 foals per stallion. As it takes at least 40 matings per stallion to get a reasonable certainty of getting the correct number of foal deaths, it is not surprising that Table IV may be distorted. Table III is probably substantially an accurate picture of the C.I.D. situation.
Where did C.I.D. come from?
The discussion which follows must be regarded as speculative. The starting point is the analysis in the Thompson, Studdert et al paper, based on the Hawksbury data. They state that the evidence points to two imported horses, Sala and Razaz being carriers. This I believe to be a certainty. They point out that these horses have a common grand sire. He is readily identified as Rasim. Now Rasim was sired by a horse bought by Lady Anne Blunt from Ali Pasha Sherif called Feysul. All the stallions which I am certain are carriers have Feysul in their pedigree. Referring back to Table III I have traced the pedigrees of 74 of the 76 stallions. (The two I have not traced I have not been able to do so because I did not have the necessary information). In the two or more lost category, all but one have Feysul as a common ancestor; in the singletons, only three do not trace back to Feysul but in the no loser category 8 out of 20 do not trace back to Feysul.
I have also traced the pedigrees of the first categories of Table IV. Seventeen out of eighteen are descended from Feysul.
By now the reader must be saying to himself "Perhaps all stallions are descended from Feysul!" To test this, I took a sample of the 477 in the last category of Table IV. This was the first 71 stallions in Vol. II of the A.H.S. Stud Book which were in this category. 36 of these did not trace to Feysul. The others did.
Can we take the possible origin of C.I.D. any further? Zobeyni comes twice in Feysul's pedigree but is in my view unlikely to be the source. If he were, C.I.D. would be spread much more widely in the breed as he is in almost every British pedigree. The only other horse that is suspicious is Bint Nura II which was the dam of Daoud. Daoud's sire was Mesaoud. Although I have not got as good evidence of Daoud being a carrier as I believe I have of Feysul, I am almost convinced that the mare, Nasra, was a carrier. Her sire is Daoud. I also find that of the few horses which do not go back to Feysul but which I strongly suspect were or are carriers all go back to Daoud as do many of the descendants of Feysul.
Conclusions
1. C.I.D. is caused by a simple recessive gene. But the line which carries it has other very desirable genes which results in breeders using this line, particularly in the selection of stallions.
2. C.I.D. is not an important disease compared with infertility, much of which is genetic and results in at least 8 times the loss in foals as C.I.D.
3. The maintenance of C.I.D. in the Arabian horse population despite it being a simple recessive gene is probably due to the selection of a greater ratio of carrier/non-carrier stallions than mares because stallions are fewer in number and are selected more rigorously.
4. A holocaust of all C.I.D. carriers would virtually destroy the breed as we know it The foal loss due to it is probably only about 2.5% annually and we should learn to live with it.
5. A simple test for carriers would lead to its reduction because breeders would then have the choice of taking risks and also be able to identify the non-carriers in the resulting foals.
6. C.I.D. has probably been transmitted from a particular line bred by Ali Pasha Sherif from a desert mare, Nura Al Kabir, and introduced into the U.K. by Lady Anne Blunt via Feysul and Bint Nura II. This does not rule out other desert lines which may carry it but I have not yet found any others.
A Final Word
This article must be regarded as informed speculation. There is no proof that the foal losses discussed here are due to C.I.D. They however stand up to statistical tests concerning their links with various classes of horse and also particular horses. It would not be appropriate to include these tests in this article. I intend, however, to write a scientific paper giving the statistical evidence.
I would like to emphasise that because a horse is descended from Feysul or Daoud does not necessarily make him a carrier. At each generation step there is only a 50% chance of the son or daughter being a carrier. Furthermore, Feysul bred two stallions of major significance to the breed, Rasim which was a carrier and Ibn Yashmak which was almost certainly not a carrier. Similarly, Bint Nura II bred two stallions of equal
significance, Daoud and Mahruss II. It is very difficult to believe that Mahrus II was a carrier.
I have not included information on the mares. The labour involved in analyzing their pedigrees is enormous. However, inspection of a sample of the pedigree the mares that have lost foals confirms the data for the stallions.
Lastly, I would like to make general remarks about the 76 stallions, the "20 or more foal" list. A large number of them, probably 40-50% or higher, are either British National Champions or Supreme Champions, major shows. The second important point is that they are not all British bred. They include horses from Egypt, U. S A., Poland and Russia. Buying horses abroad is not a solution unless a detailed investigation is made.
I hope what I have written will chance. Arabian breeders' attitude to C. I. D. If they will, as the Males of Ralvon have already done, let it be known which air the identified carriers, there is considerable hope that what has been speculate: upon above can be established or not an,: then we have hope of reducing the incidence of C.I.D. by discerning breeding.

#8 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:55 PM

Oh, hi Kimberli I just realised it was you. I guess you've already read the article then? Don't know if you would have read my postulations about the Nura line on the other forum? Anyway, if you do have bona fide information to share, please do share it... it might put this discussion to rest once and for all. :rolleyes:

#9 chiron

chiron

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 489 posts

Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:07 AM

OK, guess you all are going to drive me out of "lurk mode" :th_party0010:

How then do you explain the Davenport horses wiith absolutely no connection to Crabbet Park?
There is another, simpler, if very unpopular explaination for the Enno horses.

Again, the question....are there any other sE's that have DNA tested Carrier for SCID????

I know of 2 cases of sE stallions bred to suspected SCID carrier mares producing affected but both well before DNA tests were available. Anybody else??????
Non Illigiitamus Carborundum

#10 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:27 AM

I guess I know of enough pneumonia deaths of SE foals that would make me suspicious. Of course these cases might well have been normal pneumonia or caused by a lack of colostrum... but if SCID was not ruled out by necropsy and testing, we'll never know.

#11 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 21 February 2009 - 02:35 PM

Hi Everyone,
The "Proof" I speak of in Egypt is NOT of SCID producers but the fact that the stallion bred at Crabbet Park and sold into Egypt "could" have bred local, unrecorded mares. That is the only proof I speak of, the breeding records at the Depots.

The history and record keeping of the RAS horses is not complete. The first recorded so called stud book was written some 15 years after many of the records were destroyed with bits and peices of information that were collected from varied sources.

Here is a list of Crabbet Park horses that went to Egypt.
Besheir (Bujeyr) 1916 purchased by RAS in 1920 sold 1921

Bint Rissala (Razieh) 1920 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1946
Bustan 1917 purchased by RAS 1920 sold 1922
El Borak 1914 purchased by RAS 1920 died in 1925 - Nadir (Nefisa son x Mesaoud) x Maisuna
Hamran 1915 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1932
Kamar 1913 purchased by RAS 1920 sold 1922
Karun 1915 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1940
Kazmeen 1916 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1940
Keslan 1920 purchased by RAS 1920
Nawab 1905 purchased by RAS 1920
Raseed 1917 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1926
Ras El Mal 1915 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1934
Rayyan (Riyyam) 1918 purchased by RAS 1920 sold 1921
Razaz 1917 purchased 1920 died 1930
Samir (Sumeyr) 1916 purchased 1920 sold 1921
Solajan 1916 purchased by RAS 1920 died 1920
Zeidan 1901 purchased 1920 sold 1921
Bint Riyala (1920)

The records of Bint Riyala, Bint Rissala and Kazmeen are well known. But many of the others were retained for local breeding and some were sold shortly after importation. There is one stallion tracing to Nefisa that was used for 5 years.

If you look at the pedigrees of these horses things start to come into the light. At least they did for me. I have no proof, this is pure speculation. After looking at 100's of pedigrees over the years and seeing the same horses over and over, one gets to thinking...

As to the Davenport horses.... I have not done much research except that the few carriers that I have been told about all have one thing in common. One ancestors of these horses was owned by a farm that also owned a stallion descending from Nefisa.

Like I said, pure speculation on my part and interesting study. I would like it to be understood that I feel that SCID could be in most breeding groups, I do not discount that fact, nor believe that any one group is safe from it.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#12 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 21 February 2009 - 02:53 PM

I would also like to say that my search for the beginning and an explaination for the Egypt connection is purely for personal understanding and nothing more. I do know that no SCID affected foal needs to be born again with the testing. I have nothing to gain or lose with this search and will never agree that carriers need to be pulled from the breeding population.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#13 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 21 February 2009 - 06:29 PM

No worries, I have no problem with theories and I appreciate that you wrote your thoughts down. I gather that you believe Nefisa was a SCID carrier - you're certainly not alone in that assumption (Dajania and some of the Davenport horses came from the same area of Syria), though it makes me curious as to why Wright would not have picked up on that with his extensive pedigree research which not only included the British records but also the Australian ones. Who knows?!

Anyway, from this stallion (El Borak?) - can you trace any of his progeny or show a presumed pathway of how his progeny may have ended up in the RAS breeding programme? I would assume his progeny would still technically be SE?

My point of view is this: I know there were pedigree mix-ups at the EAO/RAS... the coat colour problems of horses such as Bint Shaams and Cleopatraa attest to this. I have always wondered how many others there might have been - especially if the resulting foals did not have the "wrong" colour to alert one to any discrepancies. All in all, it simply proves to me that the Egyptians were just as human in their mistakes as the rest of the world, and nobody should believe a pedigree (prior to DNA) is gospel. Like it or not, SCID is in the Egyptian genepool, whether through only one source or many sources - nobody will know unless they test (and thank goodness we're in the position to test if we want to). :0)

Cheers,
Demelza.

#14 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 21 February 2009 - 11:53 PM

I have been around Egyptian horses for more than 30 years. I was in Washington before, during and after the test herd was put together. I knew breeders and horses that had foals not live past 6 months and died from a lack of response to their immune system. It is these horses that began my search.

El Borak, like I said before, did not leave any recorded offspring. There will never be a way to trace him in a pedigree. My speculation was weather or not a Nefisa bred horse ever went to Egypt.

When you follow the Nefisa horses that were exported all over the world it starts to make sense. She actually has 21 foals but only 16 are known to have lived long enough to produce. Many do not have recorded foals. These horses were given away as gifts or simply fell off the records.

I have studied other horses in the old Egyptian Crabbet horses and there are always horses that have tested carrier or have been known to have trouble with foals and the immune system that do not carry those horses.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#15 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:57 PM

Ok... but still doesn't make sense to me (the pedigree mixup) as Nefisa progeny are already present in accepted SE pedigrees:

Nefisa-Narkise-Kasima-Kazmeen-
Kazmeen sired Bint Sabah, Bint Samiha, Fardous, and Zareefa.

Nefisa-Nadir-Bint Riyala-Bint Bint Riyala-
Bint Bint Riyala had Malaka and others.

Therefore, the proposed SCID carrier mares and stallions at Crabbet; Nefisa, Feysul and Bint Nura II (aka Bint Bint Nura), are all present in modern day SE pedigrees.

#16 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:43 AM

I know, this is where you had to follow the known carriers and producers to see that not all horses produced a carrier every time. The old SCID prospects and now the tested carriers are the key. you know that not every foal from a carrier is also a carrier only some of them. Narkise and Nadir may not have been carriers. The Kazmeen, Bint Riyala and Bint Risalla are (edit) not known(end edit) to produce carriers... Unless new information has been made available that I am not aware of.

EDIT, I just re-read my post and it was not correct, typing when tired is not a good thing.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com

#17 Demelza

Demelza

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:07 AM

Yup, and that's why the only way to be sure is to test - otherwise it's all at best a guess.

This all brings to mind the enormous influence of Crabbet on SE breeding... and Abbas Pasha/Ali Pasha/old egyptian breeding on Crabbet... and from there almost all of the Arabian breeding countries in the world. Maybe we should start a discussion on the main board? You seem to know alot about the Crabbet exports to Egypt Kimberli... I wonder how many other people realise the significance of these two groups intertwining? Without Egypt, there would be no Crabbet as we know it... and without Crabbet, there would be no Egypt as we know it. :0)

#18 Pete

Pete

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 666 posts
  • Location:Central Oregon High Desert

Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:32 AM

"The Kazmeen, Bint Riyala and Bint Risalla are know know to produce carriers"

Upon what do you base this statement? These are such common lines with the two mare's progeny crossed upon each other over and over that SCIDS were be very common when it is not.

Again, Has ANYONE with an SE EVER had a positive test?

The Skowronek line was used extensively in Egypt and the posibility that some of the progeny were sold to others as asil is quite possible.

#19 Pete

Pete

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 666 posts
  • Location:Central Oregon High Desert

Posted 06 April 2009 - 05:38 AM

Bint Shaams may have been other than a pedigree mixup. Naturally, you cannot get a gray from two colored horses. However, the mare that went through Hansi's quarantine did not match the marking OR age. I wonder if she matched the photo in the EAO stud book of which I have a copy. Does anyone have the listing of the facial markings in our registry. First having the wrong color then having the wrong gray mare...starts to look very suspicious.

#20 PAS

PAS

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 523 posts
  • Location:Arizona

Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:54 PM

"The Kazmeen, Bint Riyala and Bint Risalla are know know to produce carriers"

Upon what do you base this statement? These are such common lines with the two mare's progeny crossed upon each other over and over that SCIDS were be very common when it is not.

Again, Has ANYONE with an SE EVER had a positive test?

The Skowronek line was used extensively in Egypt and the posibility that some of the progeny were sold to others as asil is quite possible.


Sorry Pete, I have edited my post to say what i meant to say, that these horses are NOT known to produced SCID.
It is possible that the Skowronek line from Egypt was sold as Asil but we will never know that. There are many mistakes in the RAS/EAO records that have come out through the years.
Kimberli Nelson
Pyramid Arabian Stud at Zee Ranch
http://www.zeeranch.com




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users