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SCID and the SE as well as other genetic issues


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#21 PAS

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:57 PM

Bint Shaams may have been other than a pedigree mixup. Naturally, you cannot get a gray from two colored horses. However, the mare that went through Hansi's quarantine did not match the marking OR age. I wonder if she matched the photo in the EAO stud book of which I have a copy. Does anyone have the listing of the facial markings in our registry. First having the wrong color then having the wrong gray mare...starts to look very suspicious.



*Bint Shaams is a pedigree mix-up. Maybe Hansi will give her thoughts about this mare regarding age and such. Have you information about this mare producing SCID? I have never heard anything about her producing SCID.
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#22 Pete

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 02:40 PM

*Bint Shaams is a pedigree mix-up. Maybe Hansi will give her thoughts about this mare regarding age and such. Have you information about this mare producing SCID? I have never heard anything about her producing SCID.


She never produced SCIDS ( I don't think ANY SE ever has), but she was mentioned earlier in this thread.
But now for "pedigree mixup"? It would have to be a whale of "a" mixup. First the sire or mare or both would have to be wrong (that alone I could see happening), then the markings and age from another mare would have to be wrong. That is simply too much to get wrong, in my opinion.

#23 Pete

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 02:53 PM

Another fact that backs up my supposition is that the SE lines are SO interbred that a disease like SCIDS would become obvious quickly. Yet, we haven't seen it. This could very well be because we do not have it in SEs. But if we do, where are the positive tests? We were told from the beginning by the university testers that there was "not much problems in SEs". I can believe that. I don't believe there is ANY problem.

As for now, it seems the only ones benefitting from these tests are the testers. That alone could keep them from publishing the truth.

Again, except for the Eno horses, who out there has seen a positive test? The only ones I have ever seen mentioned are non-asil E Related horses.

#24 PAS

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:00 PM

Another fact that backs up my supposition is that the SE lines are SO interbred that a disease like SCIDS would become obvious quickly. Yet, we haven't seen it. This could very well be because we do not have it in SEs. But if we do, where are the positive tests? We were told from the beginning by the university testers that there was "not much problems in SEs". I can believe that. I don't believe there is ANY problem.

As for now, it seems the only ones benefitting from these tests are the testers. That alone could keep them from publishing the truth.

Again, except for the Eno horses, who out there has seen a positive test? The only ones I have ever seen mentioned are non-asil E Related horses.



I have never seen a positive test on a Se but I have heard of one here in Arizona but they would not release the bloodlines. It was supposed to be a SE and it was affected. Perhaps Lisa knows of a positive or a carrier within the SE's.
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#25 Juniper

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 04:15 PM

Another fact that backs up my supposition is that the SE lines are SO interbred that a disease like SCIDS would become obvious quickly. Yet, we haven't seen it. This could very well be because we do not have it in SEs. But if we do, where are the positive tests? We were told from the beginning by the university testers that there was "not much problems in SEs". I can believe that. I don't believe there is ANY problem.

As for now, it seems the only ones benefitting from these tests are the testers. That alone could keep them from publishing the truth.

Again, except for the Eno horses, who out there has seen a positive test? The only ones I have ever seen mentioned are non-asil E Related horses.



Pete

Just look at the Davenport herd in your neck of the woods!!!

Many of the SCID carriers came from an Oregon herd, They were common in Ed Skinner's horses, my neighbour. Did they think (Ed) or tell (your neighbours) that it was there?
Heck no!!!!
Only after testing them all did the truth come to view. If that is not a closed herd....


had they lost foals? Yes


Enough said. You blaming Skowronek or pointing at impurity is so lame. Talk to Michael Bowling.

#26 Demelza

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 07:07 PM

Pete,
Read my post (#7) above. Skowronek is unlikely to have been a carrier.

I understand your thoughts about not wanting to test and seeing your money better spent purchasing hay - we all have to weigh up the risks and decide for ourselves. However, the ONLY way to prove ANY herd or individual is clear of SCID is to test.

I don't agree with your logic about the mutation being rampant just because the suspected lines were so heavily used. The straight Crabbet group is just as inbred as the SEs and it's not rampant there. The Davenports are known to carry SCID, and they are the most inbred of the lot, yet if you do an internet search you will only find ONE listed carrier. Moniet El Nefous is heavily used in SE breeding yet LFS is not rampant. Genes work on a "chance" basis only.

After certain people on the other forum said any SE horse testing as a carrier can't be SE, how many SE breeders do you think would own up to having a carrier or breeding an affected foal? The German stallion Shams Sirius was tested as a carrier but thanks to the peer pressure within the SE breeding community they gelded him. Even the man who alerted the forum to the name of the horse was given a hard time.

Finally, even if all of these rumours about pedigree switches or non-Asil breeding were true - why would you not then assume that such switches/mistakes could have happened at ANY time? Whether or not you believe it is only a problem with the "Enno group" of horses, the fact is those horses and Shams Sirius are accepted by the PS as SEs. They are part of the genepool.

Think about it. Alot of money has been made by perpetuating the myth that the SE is magically clear of SCID just because they are Asil. How many SE foals dying from immune deficiency related illnesses have had SCID ruled out as a possibility, via testing? Very few I imagine, because the myth has been repeated so often. People will do and say anything for money. Call me cynical if you like!

The only guarantee of a SCID clear Arabian is a piece of paper from VetGen that says as much.


"The Kazmeen, Bint Riyala and Bint Risalla are know know to produce carriers"

Upon what do you base this statement? These are such common lines with the two mare's progeny crossed upon each other over and over that SCIDS were be very common when it is not.

Again, Has ANYONE with an SE EVER had a positive test?

The Skowronek line was used extensively in Egypt and the posibility that some of the progeny were sold to others as asil is quite possible.



#27 phanilah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 09:17 PM

Again, except for the Eno horses, who out there has seen a positive test? The only ones I have ever seen mentioned are non-asil E Related horses.


I believe it was 2007 that the German registry posted on their website the SCID carrier status of Shams Sirius, who is Straight Egyptian. I believe he has since been gelded, so he no longer appears on that section of the website, since he is no longer a licensed stallion.

In addition, there are several straight Davenports who have been tested as carriers - so SCID can and does appear in some asil bloodlines.

Beth
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#28 Pete

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:10 PM

I now understand that the Enno horses were never tested either. Is Shams Sirius related to Bint Shaams?

#29 phanilah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:16 PM

I now understand that the Enno horses were never tested either. Is Shams Sirius related to Bint Shaams?


According to Dr. Deimel, and he would know better than anyone else...not only were the foundation group he imported tested, but also some of the resulting foals.

I don't know the pedigree of Shams Sirius off the top of my head well enough to know if he is related to Bint Shaams.

Regardless, he IS classified as SE and until someone can prove he isn't....to say that SCID doesn't appear in the SE population is simply incorrect.

Beth
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#30 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:21 AM

Beth, you are making statements NOT based upon facts. That is NOT scientific. When an unscrupulous individual sells a horse and lies about the asil pedigree, it does NOT make the horse Straight Egyptian. Similarly, a loose stallion at night would be all it took to infect the Davenports. That does NOT make the get pure Davenport. Most Arabians carry the Skowronek/Crabbet line and it would be easy to transfer that to any line. We didn't have DNA tests in those days. Just look at how many Saddlebreds are in the "pure Arabians".

As far as the "Genes work on a chance basis." That is another misleading statement. Genes work on a scientific probability. A carrier has a 50% probability of its foal being a carrier, 25% probability of its grandget, etc if the other partner is clear. If the other partner is also a carrier, there is a 25% chance of having a foal affected.

If we don't get scientific, the statements lose all meaning. Indeed, there are always a percentage of false positives and false negatives and any horse testing positive must be retested. NONE of the horses tested were retested.

I state again that we would see MANY more cases of SCIDS in SEs if they were truly carriers. They are too interbred for any other occurance to be possible.

#31 phanilah

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:35 AM

Pete, you want to be in denial, that is fine.

You're obviously going to reject any information that is provided, so I won't bother wasting any more time.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#32 Demelza

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 03:46 AM

Ditto.

#33 Juniper

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:22 AM

Hitting head on the wall

#34 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:47 AM

It is you three who are in denial. Responding to incomplete or possibly error filled evidence as fact is irresponsible.

#35 chiron

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:37 AM

The mare named (but not tested) in the Enno herd is only very distantly related (as are all sE) to the mare *Bint Shaams. FWIW (NOTHING) the sE *Bint Shaams maternal grandson is SCID clear.
AND FWIW
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#36 Demelza

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 10:58 AM

It is you three who are in denial. Responding to incomplete or possibly error filled evidence as fact is irresponsible.

Oh stop being a baby Pete, you're better than that. If you would like to get in touch with Enno, let me know. Alot of people thought the man was lying, but the emergence of Shams Sirius several years down the track should put that theory to rest. Read through Wright's pedigree analysis - to the best of my knowledge it's still the only one that's been done with real herd records and "inside knowledge", and made public, after all this time. Finally, go back and question your sources - what proof do they have, what scientific analyses have they used, and what might they have to gain by putting you on that scent?

#37 Flying Hooves

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:29 PM

Ok now get mad at me again if you wish but I MUST state something:

Unless one of you has a COPY of the actual SCID test results for the Enno horses his horses are speculated to be carriers. There was a whole lawsuit about these horses so yes I can say it may have been an "I'll show you" kind of thing.

Show me proof of the TEST RESULTS and I will leave the Enno horses be. Talking to Enno is like talking to Dr Seuss and I am tired of playing games.

I am doing serious research and do not need the aggrivation. Show me the test or stop saying they are carriers period!

Just because a horse related to Enno's horses (3 generations forward) does NOT provide conclusive evidence that Enno's horses were also carriers.

Now if you took Enno's horses out of the mix, you have a stallion tested carrier with 16+ ancestors who could have passed it on. And you would never have suspected just ONE horse. NONE of the sires and dams of any of these horses were ever tested for SCID

And so you know, even if Judith Forbis, Hansi, Ms Ott, MR or any other well respected world known breeder told me I have an SE carrier I could NOT say yes they are UNLESS I saw their test results. Anyone doing research on a testable mutation who adds a carrier to their research WITHOUT PROOF is ruining their research and derailing any other research on the subject.

Now with the untestable, sure, if stallion x is bred to mare y and the foals were suspected to be affected with the untestable mutations then add them.

And yes I believe there are people in this world who would claim their horses were SCID carriers just to make a fuss. PROOF or they aren't carriers.
You need to look at it scientifically. If you are not a big stud selling lots of horses, claiming you have an SE SCID carrier only hurts the REST of the people with the bloodline. It sure as heck doesn't make a difference to the one not selling horses.

Just as HIDING the status of a mutation is a marketing tool so is EXPOSING a line.

Off my soapbox.
Lisa
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#38 Pete

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:38 PM

You girls are thinking like...girls! You are using the intuitive side of your brain instead of the logical side. You also know nothing about science. I understand from a researcher that the Enno horses were not tested. I seem to remember that there was some lawsuit or disagreement between Enno and the person from whom he obtained the horses. As I remember it dealt with the purity of the horses he obtained. As I remember, he was forced to take a number of horses in order to get the horses he was after. If he wants to reply, I am sure his memories will be more accurate than what I remember from old posts. However, this does not change certain facts. SCIDS is nearly nonexistant in SEs and the SEs that are expected to have it may very well be so proven to NOT be SEs. We know the Skowronek connection in Egypt. We know the Shaams debacle. We know that every positive test should be repeated to rule out the ever present false positives. These were NOT done.

It would be easy scientifically to do a statistical analysis of the facts available to determine whether SCIDS could exist in SEs and whether the horses with supposed positive tests were, indeed, SEs. The answer would be something like this: There is a X% probability with a Y% Confidence Factor that this horse was improperly identified as SE OR this line does have SCIDS. This would require that the information available to a few now be given to the mathematicians. It also should follow proper scientific requirements like all positive tasts should be retested.

Of course, this is unlikely to happen as it would cause a loss of income to the testing organizations. It does not make sense for them to remove a segment of the population from being tested. The group developing a test is usually tied in monetarily to the goup doing the testing. These relationships should be made public for obvious reasons.

I shall state again: there are several thousand Ses out there. They are one of the most interbred populations in existance. It is amazing that they do not have more genetic related problems but these have likely been mainly bred out over the milleniae. To have a couple (reported) single test positives really makes no logical sense. Where there is, indeed, a true problem like LFS, it was easily tracked. The SCIDS thing could be scientifically debunked by statistical analysis if the true facts were made available. Perhaps Lisa's efforts will eventually provide the facts to reach a final conclusion.

#39 Demelza

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 07:46 PM

Pete, I have a degree in science. If you wanted to do a statistical analysis as you've suggested (to ascertain the frequency of SCID in the SE population), you would need to take a large random sample of SE horses and TEST them.

Enno said his horses were tested. I happen to believe him - not everyone does and that's their choice... he will talk in riddles if he thinks you're on the attack (rightly or wrongly).

Who is the "researcher"?

SEs do have alot of genetic problems Pete; in addition to SCID there is CA, LFS, JES, and GPT (of course none of these are limited to SEs)... YET they are still for the most part a healthy and viable population. Just because these mutations exist doesn't mean the doomsday bells are ringing. Just because some of us acknowledge the existence of these problems and encourage education, doesn't mean we think the sky is falling. Most breeders will never have a problem with any of them.

#40 Juniper

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:18 AM

Oh btw Pete

I have an engineering dgree in Agriculture from the University of Louvain in Belgium and a MS from University of Florida.

You want to make statistics with no data???

So are you going to help Cornell?




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