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SCID and the SE as well as other genetic issues


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#41 Pete

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:19 PM

"I have a degree in science. If you wanted to do a statistical analysis as you've suggested, you would need to take a large random sample of SE horses and TEST them."

This is a great example of how a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You would certainly NOT test in this manner. You do not test randomly, you test the problem subjects and their lineage and compare that to Medelian genetic statistics. Good grief, do you actually know how "intuitive" you sound?

#42 Juniper

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:41 PM

Hi Heidi

Is there an ignore button here?

Christine

#43 Juniper

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Found it!!!

Great. So long Pete.

#44 Djoumanah

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:43 PM

I now understand that the Enno horses were never tested either. Is Shams Sirius related to Bint Shaams?



This is for Pete and all the others who may be interested in Shams Sirius pedigree:

http://www.allbreedp...om/shams sirius


Regards,


Sandra :bigemo_harabe_net-109:

#45 Demelza

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:54 AM

This is for Pete and all the others who may be interested in Shams Sirius pedigree:

http://www.allbreedp...om/shams sirius


Regards,


Sandra :th_hehe:

That pedigree for Shams Sirius's dam Shams Saskia was incorrect on the all breed pedigree database. I have fixed it, not sure when the changes will come through, but the correct info for Shams Saskia is: sire Ibrahim (Mahomed x Mahiba), dam Shams El Sayadah (Shams El Sarabi x Shams El Saayda)

#46 msfarab

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 08:01 PM

Hi All,
There are options for breeders to test for SCID... one will list the results if you get the test kit through them and the other is private, with no disclosure unless the breeder WANTS to.
Simple as that.
Today, SCID testing, with the discount, is cheaper than ever, but the results are POSTED through one organization, albeit late or not up to date at all times.

Informed MARE OWNERS should simply ASK stallion owners to provide the copy of the SCID test result before breeding, or not breed to the stallion if there is a question about it. MARE OWNERS can also spend the first $75 and get their mare tested.... then go stallion shopping without fear.

Our Vet "call" to come to the farm is more than the SCID test.

Not to stir that "INFAMOUS CAN OF WORMS" on who "heard " what, but a few years ago, while at Scottsdale AZ show, we sat at dinner with a newbie SE owner/breeder who knew NO BETTER, and they said they HAD a SE SCID foal (that died) and their VET didn't even THINK of that FIRST, but testing confirmed it.

Only those affected have PROOF when they get the necropsy report back, or test and post results.


These folks had NO CLUE about it, and thought they were doing GOOD to breed to a famous SE stallion, only to learn through tragedy that there are other things to worry about.

We provide prospective mare owners with a copy of the SCID reports on stallions, AND recommend they test their mares to see if they are a CARRIER, so that a foal owned by mare owner that comes back as CARRIER sired by our stallion is not labeled as coming FROM the sire. Make sense?>

I would think stallion owners would want to protect themselves this way as well.
EDIT - I was just on the FOAL site and do not see the LIST, where is it?
msfarab
Mountain Spring Farm Sport Horses, USA
offering rare SE/SO/HL stallions through frozen semen bank:

RG Hilacious (El Hilal x Desert Song RSI) 1981-2008 Grey SE, SO, HL, BL, AK
Faydin (Mahrouf x Roufina) 1979-2006 Black Straight Babson, SE, SO, HL, BL, AK
--------------------
Fresh or frozen semen available from:

BW Fadl Tali (Faydin x Bint Fadl Starr) Homozygous Black Straight Babson, SE, SO, HL, BL, AK
MSF Nadir (Faydin x CRF Nadira) Chestnut Babson sired, SE, SO, HL, BL, AK
Rajah of Sabbah (Inshalla Imhotep x Shar Sabbah) Bay Babson/ Halima, SE, SO, HL, BL, AK
MSF Sheikh Habib (RG Fay Moniet x RG Moniette Salim) Chestnut SE, SO, BL sub B, AK
MSF Hamdani Simri (Faydin x IMF Badia Nafila) Homozygous black Babson Sired, E-Sired, AK, BL sub Dwarka, rare Hamdani strain, already extinct in SE Arabians.

#47 phanilah

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:44 PM

Just for clarification, FOAL only posts SCID test results IF the horse owner submits the results AND signs a form giving permission for FOAL to include the results on their list. Just because someone orders a test kit through FOAL DOES NOT mean that FOAL automatically posts the results. In fact, FOAL DOES NOT have access to the results directly from VetGen - only an owner can provide FOAL the information.

The link to the FOAL SCID test result list (updated 4/15) is here:
http://foal.org/user...t4_15_09WEB.pdf

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#48 phanilah

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:44 PM

And a reminder that the SCID test fee for April, May and June is $75/test (regardless of number of kits ordered). The price is the same regardless of whether you order direclty with VetGen or go through FOAL (who then places the order with VetGen).

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#49 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:31 PM

The link to the FOAL SCID test result list (updated 4/15) is here:
http://foal.org/user...t4_15_09WEB.pdf

Beth


Beth,
I have given up on having my horses' test results listed on the FOAL list. Back when they were tested, I sent the results to FOAL. I received back from FOAL the certificates they print out saying clear. The results never appeared on the list. I contacted Mrs. Illing. Still nothing. Then last year, I contacted her again, and sent copies of the certificates from vetgen and FOAL. Unless I am going blind, which is certainly possible, I still cannot find my horses on the list. Can anyone else see them there, before I make a fool of myself by saying they aren't? These are the horses I had tested:
Black Shaadow
Allahna
Prince Rex
Lady Minstril

DJ

#50 Seglavi

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:20 PM

DJ,
We are in the same boat as you. We had Jill's stallion tested in the spring of '08, submitted the clear report and permission form to FOAL and nothing. I emailed Mrs. Illing several months ago and still nothing. I have faxed the clear VetGen report to Lisa Tucker with permission to include Razal Ibn Azalia on her list.
It is incredibly tedious to read through the list on FOAL from time to time as they aren't alphabetized or arranged in any organized way that I can figure out and I agree, I am tired of going blind in the effort to see our horse added to the list.
We have now received our test kits from Syracuse for the LFS research and hope to pull the hairs this weekend. Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a horse information sheet one fills out? None came with our kits.
Pam Studebaker
Saqlawiyat Arabians
Trotwood, Ohio, USA

#51 Juniper

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:30 PM

DJ,
We are in the same boat as you. We had Jill's stallion tested in the spring of '08, submitted the clear report and permission form to FOAL and nothing. I emailed Mrs. Illing several months ago and still nothing. I have faxed the clear VetGen report to Lisa Tucker with permission to include Razal Ibn Azalia on her list.
It is incredibly tedious to read through the list on FOAL from time to time as they aren't alphabetized or arranged in any organized way that I can figure out and I agree, I am tired of going blind in the effort to see our horse added to the list.
We have now received our test kits from Syracuse for the LFS research and hope to pull the hairs this weekend. Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a horse information sheet one fills out? None came with our kits.



E-mail Cassy. She is very quick to respond. There were info sheets with mine. For the pictures, I sent some by e-mial that they printed. It seems they want to see the white markings.

Cassy is on this board.

Christine

PS. It took a loooong time for my horses to be listed on FOAL but mine are there now. Ghazal's sire has been tested and lot listed, for way longer.

#52 phanilah

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:52 PM

I'm not sure I can help much re: the FOAL issue - other than forward your messages to Marguerite. Or perhaps, contact her again and see if there was some miscommunication somewhere.

Feel free to contact me privately, and I can try to assist.

Beth

Edited to add: The list was updated again yesterday, so double check to see if there are current additions for your horses. Unless things have changed, the list is done alphabetically (but horses with a * are listed alphabetically first, then the main alpha listing starts after that).
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#53 phanilah

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:54 PM

Pam, I have a scanned copy of the paperwork - I'll be glad to e-mail to you, if needed.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#54 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:53 PM

Edited to add: The list was updated again yesterday, so double check to see if there are current additions for your horses. Unless things have changed, the list is done alphabetically (but horses with a * are listed alphabetically first, then the main alpha listing starts after that).


I did contact Marguerite again after I posted a couple days ago, and my horses have now been added to the list as of yesterday.

DJ

#55 diane

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 04:30 AM

... how a little bit of knowledge....


Becareful, Pete... SCID is the name of the concern, not SCIDS. You can't have Severe Combined Immunodeficiency S?

SCID is SCID, not SCIDS - even this has been enlarged to Severe by Americans. Originally, as I know it, it was CID. And considering that the D is in the middle of a word, to my mind it should be SCId or CId. But that's getting pedantic, perhaps :5_1_124:

Theories could be constructive and that's what discussions are about. Some would like to know the beginnings, others don't. If you are against a theory, give constructive reasoning and evidence. Just as much as you are asking others to produce evidence. Then some good may come of it.
cheers, diane
Agecroft, Australia


Is there an elephant in the room?

#56 Hadaya

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 08:30 PM

SCID-Severe Combined Immunodeficiendy DNA Analysis Report
Hadaya Aneek-clear report #400015108
Hadaya Sterling Silver-clear report #400015109
Ansata Nile Prince (Ansata Malik Shah x MB Adallah (x Imperial Madheen) 2003 SE grey stallion
Hadaya Sterling Silver (EAI Silvereen x Nisrs Bint Kamal) 2006 SE grey stallion -SCID clear, CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Bint Ashia (Hadaya BeyHalimBay x Hadaya Nile Ashia) 1997 SE bay mare -CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Saudalya (Suad El Sahib x Hadaya Alya) 1994 SE bay mare -CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Silverette (EAI Silvereen x Hadaya Saudalya) 2006 SE grey mare -CA, N/N clear
Nisrs Bint Kamal (Ansata El Nisr x Ramses El Kamal) 1988 SE grey mare -CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Nile Ashila (Qadar Al Jalil x Hadaya Bint Ashia)[/color] 2010 SE grey filly -CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Shiraz (Hadaya Sterling Silver x Hadaya Saudalya) 2010 SE grey filly -CA, N/N clear
Hadaya Arabians

#57 DJ Sheldon

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:03 PM

SCID results just back.

Kris Nasama (Shaikh El Sherif x Jai Kris Image) CLEAR

#58 Demelza

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 01:32 AM

My final horse to be tested, making all the breeding horses I own as of this date SCID clear:
Shaheen Al Saba (Thaqib Al Nasser x La Moniette) SCID CLEAR :1233_hand_clapping:

#59 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 11:36 PM

:) :th_cheer:

#60 hansi

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 01:09 AM

No worries, I have no problem with theories and I appreciate that you wrote your thoughts down. I gather that you believe Nefisa was a SCID carrier - you're certainly not alone in that assumption (Dajania and some of the Davenport horses came from the same area of Syria), though it makes me curious as to why Wright would not have picked up on that with his extensive pedigree research which not only included the British records but also the Australian ones. Who knows?!

Anyway, from this stallion (El Borak?) - can you trace any of his progeny or show a presumed pathway of how his progeny may have ended up in the RAS breeding programme? I would assume his progeny would still technically be SE?

My point of view is this: I know there were pedigree mix-ups at the EAO/RAS... the coat colour problems of horses such as Bint Shaams and Cleopatraa attest to this. I have always wondered how many others there might have been - especially if the resulting foals did not have the "wrong" colour to alert one to any discrepancies. All in all, it simply proves to me that the Egyptians were just as human in their mistakes as the rest of the world, and nobody should believe a pedigree (prior to DNA) is gospel. Like it or not, SCID is in the Egyptian genepool, whether through only one source or many sources - nobody will know unless they test (and thank goodness we're in the position to test if we want to). :0)

Cheers,
Demelza.


dear demelza

I am just reading now some of your and other posts. there was no pedigree mix-up at the EAO/Ras regarding Bint shaams. I had her in my quarantine, she was a 'grey' and has two colored parents. Cleopatra was also in my quarantine, a black mare. Therefore, no matter what the original statement of colour at birth was, the adult colour speaks for itself. Not only the age and markings did not quite match either with Bint Shaams.

what else I am reading is by and large assumption,based on no facts. A friend of mine just pointed out to me today the problem with the SCI affected Sala and Razaz, imported to Australia. Studying these two pedigrees one truly cant ascertain where what came from. Just wonder where and when a mutation occurred.

Speaking of 'nura' which 'nura' are we talking about?

thanks
Hansi
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



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