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WHAT IS EUROPE THINKING????????????????


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#1 hansi

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:59 PM

Dear breeders, internationally

I was told that MARAJJ IS Scid carrier. That W H JUSTICE carries 'CA"
the latter had '500 breedings'.

Do you think it is irresponsible to create 500 foals with a heredity decease, knowingly?? Breeding heavily from a 'scid' carrier?

Who in their right mind would purchase such breeding and or offspring? Both stallion are beautiful, none has been tested under saddle either I was informed.

Personally I feel that this is willingly wanting to destroy the breed, while the arabian breed is already in the minority. Is a breeding to either stallion that important to create potential heartaches?

Please tell us what you think. thank you kindly

Hansi :PerspectMA19366318-0001:
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#2 NAF

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:20 PM

Hansi, unfortunately money is the deciding factor in a lot of horse breeding decisions, not genetic problems or conformational faults, or disposition problems. As long as the show ring rules breeding decisions, that is the heritage "greedy breeders" are going to leave future owners, breeders. There aren't many quality breeders left to carry that burden of honesty beyond reproach. You, are one that I know off still here. Where are the others? Jan

#3 Avalondales

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:21 PM

Hansi,

The purpose of finding out the status of a breeding animal in regards to any inheritable disease is to keep the disease from happening in the future...Knowing the status of these two stallions a mare owner can have there mare tested and if she is uneffected then at best a carrier will be created and not an affected foal...If people test and know the status of an animal they can make an informed discision..As far as breeding from an affected animal I personally would not do so at this stage of my program and probably not into the future... But knowing the status really really cuts down on the risk and is actually a good thing... I think the owners of the stallion's in question should be commended for their honesty and as long as they insist on testing for the mares they breed to they are in fact doing right by the Arabian breed... Tracy

Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
The Spirit of Ancient Egypt

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SA Shaikh Al Sakr 2001 SE/AK Grey Gelding (Harakka X FA Maronique)
AVA Ishaaq Al Haytham 2008 SE/AK Grey Gelding (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Sara Al Badeia)
AVA Lilith 2009 SE/AK Bay Filly (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Josephin Al Badeia)

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#4 Djoumanah

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:35 PM

Uh Oh...I see this turning into a disaster of a discussion....



Me, too. I'll get myself some :PerspectMA19366318-0001: and :crat: and a good spot on that comfy couch...

#5 Avalondales

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:38 PM

I don't disagree with the assessment that this is a topic soon to be in the members only section... It definately is a stick of dynomite at the firepit... T

Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
The Spirit of Ancient Egypt

The home of


SA Shaikh Al Sakr 2001 SE/AK Grey Gelding (Harakka X FA Maronique)
AVA Ishaaq Al Haytham 2008 SE/AK Grey Gelding (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Sara Al Badeia)
AVA Lilith 2009 SE/AK Bay Filly (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Josephin Al Badeia)

NSH Mares
Jazzair Muyamman 2000 Black Bay Mare (Banner of Islam X Nydia Bask)
AVA Farah De Angela 2005 Bay Mare (Harakka X Jazzair Muyamman)

 


#6 hansi

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:56 PM

HUMMM.

Well, both WH Justice AND Marajj are CA carriers but are listed as SCID clear.

Here's the bigger question....

We know that Marajj got it through is dam line and we know that he was tested because affected foal(s) were produced. BUT...where did it come through on Justice?????

Magnum? Would seem unlikely given the amount of offspring. *El Shaklan? The Egyptian side of his breeding (BTW I used to own a Jassen daughter)...

HUM!



thank you for the correction regarding scid. I received this from a German breeder, had no way of verifying it.

hansi
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Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



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#7 Juniper

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:22 PM

Doesn't it take quite a few years to notice that there IS a problem (except with a test)? This makes it even worse. I also think there are degrees in the way the horses are affected.
How long have these horses been breeding?

#8 ponygirl

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:30 PM

I personally would never knowingly add a genetic flaw to my herd but it doesn't seem to bother the ones who do. I would think it does lower breed opportunities of the horses in question somewhat but I guess money talks.
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#9 Ray

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:40 PM

Neither stallion is Asil, so who cares? I don't think the Heinz-57 crowd is all that concerned. Neither stallion has what it takes to be producing offspring numbering in the hundreds.

I don't know about Marajj, but I do know that Marieta Salas thought a lot of Marwan and got some very fine offspring by him. Justice has a crummy rear end.

Hansi - in general the people breeding to these stallions don't know the horses, don't know the pedigree and don't know what they're doing. Typical bandwagon mentality - playing "follow the leader" and hoping to cash in by riding on the coattails of those who promote their stallions in every magazine, bus stop bench and milk carton they can buy.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.

#10 chiron

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:46 PM

HUMMM.

Well, both WH Justice AND Marajj are CA carriers but are listed as SCID clear.

Here's the bigger question....

We know that Marajj got it through is dam line and we know that he was tested because affected foal(s) were produced. BUT...where did it come through on Justice?????

Magnum? Would seem unlikely given the amount of offspring. *El Shaklan? The Egyptian side of his breeding (BTW I used to own a Jassen daughter)...

HUM!



Been wondering the same thing. Looked & looked again at Justice's pedigree. NOTHING is jumping out at me....except the Spanish on the top side. But...with the sheer number of Magnum's seems unlikely. Some sE on the bottom but pretty far back.
A puzzle to be sure.
Is Justice's dam available for testing??
Non Illigiitamus Carborundum

#11 Demelza

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:23 PM

According to Lisa Goodwin-Campiglio, WH Justice has carrier lines on both sides of his pedigree. Either one, or both of his parents could be carriers. The enormous popularity of this stallion, his sons, and his sire probably make this announcement a bit scary for many breeders. However, at least there is a test for CA and it can be managed by breeding carrier to clear, and then going on with clear offspring (remember carriers can and do produce clear offspring).

After it was announced that Marajj was a CA carrier, his sire Marwan Al Shaqab was tested pretty quickly to end the speculation that the gene came from him. Through testing it was found Marajj inherited his CA gene from his dam.

A voluntary list of carriers and clear horses (including some Asils) is on this website under "CA status list": http://cerebellarabiotrophy.webs.com/

#12 Avalondales

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:05 PM

Magnum has a pretty powerful team backing him up and even the registry couldn't out gun them in court..

Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
The Spirit of Ancient Egypt

The home of


SA Shaikh Al Sakr 2001 SE/AK Grey Gelding (Harakka X FA Maronique)
AVA Ishaaq Al Haytham 2008 SE/AK Grey Gelding (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Sara Al Badeia)
AVA Lilith 2009 SE/AK Bay Filly (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Josephin Al Badeia)

NSH Mares
Jazzair Muyamman 2000 Black Bay Mare (Banner of Islam X Nydia Bask)
AVA Farah De Angela 2005 Bay Mare (Harakka X Jazzair Muyamman)

 


#13 hansi

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:16 PM

I wonder if this has anything to do with Magnum leaving for a permanent vacation in Argentina next year?

But I just can't see HOW that could be with the many HUNDREDS of foals on the ground and I've not heard of any CA affected foals?



Dear posters

Interesting to me your honest opinions. All I can see is that some 600 or more foals now have this gene enherited.While indeed the owners voluntarily disclosed, it still is unacceptable to me personally. I know that there will be newcommers, people who cant afford to test their horses, feel relatively certain they have no problem of this kind and now will have to be prepared for terrible heartaches, shutting down new breeding establishments because they will not find it ethical to breed from a questionable genetic ly damaged stock.

No matter what we all think, we have to adopt a certain responsibility, think of the future, think of others, not just our bank accounts. I refuse to believe that any of the old-timer breeders of known would have ever incorporated a genetically flawed mare or stallion in their program, no matter how beautiful the horse is. ITS JUST NOT DONE, PERIOD!!!!

It also should not matter if the horse is asil or not, 95percent of all arabs are NON ASIL,but it does matter for the equine industry in general.

What gets me so often is that so many of our smaller breeders mortgage their soals, work their hearts out to preserve a good horse, go hungry before they do, go through fires and floods and now have to put up with this market floading of genetically damaged offspring. That DOES NOT SIT RIGHT WITH ME!!
Some 600 or more ofFspring will be on the market, damaged genetically, while some 600 other offspring do not have a problem., SO THINK ABOUT IT PLEASE!!!

I feel ashamed that this happens in the Arabian Horse Industry, feel so helpless after decades- as many of you my collegues have- tried to produce mentally and physically sound stock, guaranteeing it, standing behind it, like so many of you do. I can not find oneexcuse excusing this irresponsible happening. Matter of fact I am thoroughly and utterly disgusted.!

Now, this is my opinion and anybody is entitled to theirs.

Hansi :PerspectMA19366318-0001:
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Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



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#14 phanilah

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:27 PM

Just got to thinking...it can't come from both sides because you'd have an affected horse...it has to come from one, or the other...



No, both parents _could_ be carriers, yet only one passes the mutated allele along..so the resulting foal is a carrier, not affected.

There is a test, people should use it....test and then you know - then there is no need for speculation.

Beth
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#15 anitae

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:57 PM

IMO, managing CA is like managing SCID. With a test, one can avoid breeding a stallion with one copy of the affected gene to a mare with a copy of the affected gene. For those who need a refresher in genetics, if both parents carry one copy of the affected gene, the probabilities are that they will, in 25% of cases, produce an affected foal (2 copies of the gene), 25% of a CLEAR (no copies), and 50% having one copy.

Hansi, one bit of correction on your statistics. If the two stallions that have been discussed have sired 600 foals, the probability is that they passed on the gene to HALF of them -- so 300 would have a copy of the affected gene. Any of those foals that were from mares with the affected gene could have ended up with two copies (one from sire, one from dam) and would develop symptoms (and not breed on). Therefore, statistical probability is that there are fewer than 300 that inherited one affected copy of the gene from the sire that will breed on. ALL of these should be tested before they are bred onward. Then, the breeders can avoid having any possibility of an affected foal. (Of course, any mare who has one affected gene could pass that on.)

It is not difficult, over several generations, to substantially reduce the occurrence of the gene while having the benefit of other desirable characteristics from a parent that has one affected copy of the gene.

Hurrah for the owners who publicized the results of the test!!! Please remember that this is a NEW test. So let's not "blame" the owners for the foals produced in past years.

Anita

#16 tstormwing

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 10:27 PM

Although I would never consider using Marajj, or WH Justice, or the famous SCID carrier Versace --- the point is the testing WAS done, the owners ARE honest, and you can still safely use these stallions by being sure you only breed mares that have tested clear to the genetic condition in question. Testing each generation means you can keep the bloodline (and hopefully the things you like about them) and although you'll have some carrier foals (who are perfectly healthy and unaffected), in a couple of generations you can have foals that are clear of these genetic conditions.

At which time, something else will no doubt have mutated into existence. And we'll all be scrambling for a new test.

Yes, there are plenty of excellent stallions that have and will test clear. But if you want these names... You can be prepared to breed responsibly.

Kimberley

#17 hansi

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 11:09 PM

No, both parents _could_ be carriers, yet only one passes the mutated allele along..so the resulting foal is a carrier, not affected.

There is a test, people should use it....test and then you know - then there is no need for speculation.

Beth



Dear Beth

I know that you are not encouraging to use the defected genes, provided ones carefully checks things out. Now please tell, does everybody have to? Should not everybody trust tht all is okay without going through extra expenses?

I dont even know who the breeders and owners of the two stallions are, did not check it out, heard about the problem from europe only today, and it really does not matter who it is. What matters is that we all should try to eliminate as much as possible future problems. Newcommers will always come about, have to, and those should be able to aquire stock or breed from it without becoming a genetic einstein and/or be afraid.

The arabian horse industry in general is already quite fragile and we need to try to strengenth it, not weaken it.

Any idea how a CA effected horse will stand up under stress performances? Do you know of any who do?

Take care
Hansi :Wine_glass_2:
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#18 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 11:44 PM

Hansi I understand you concerns regarding CA or Scid but it is alot easier today to breed and avoid the possiblities of haveing an affected foal. There are test that will minimise the chances of affected foals so no reason to breed blindly today for CA or Scid. :Wine_glass_2:

I'm so very pleased that stallion owners are becomming more, and more honest regarding the statis of their stallions and although you may not read it in their adds I have no doubt that many do the right thing and inform the mare owners regarding CA or Scid results on their stallions when they are contacted by mare owners. I also believe that new breeders have at this point an opportunity to be informed about genetic problems they may not have known about and although it is an added expence to have a mare tested the responibility must not fall on the stallion all the time. As stated before regarding Marwan it turned out the dam of Marajj was affected and hence it was bred on.

And regarding a CA affected horse being tested under saddle....Hansi most foals are put to sleep long before they reach an age to be saddle trained and if you have ever seen an affected foal you would understand why they would not live long enought to see a saddle.

The answer is to use the test available to avoid genetic problems if you feel concerned....there is however no test available for LFS, or JE or GPT so we are still at the mercy of stallion or mare owners to be honest and dissclose. ;)

#19 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 12:44 AM

Neither stallion is Asil, so who cares? I don't think the Heinz-57 crowd is all that concerned. Neither stallion has what it takes to be producing offspring numbering in the hundreds.

I don't know about Marajj, but I do know that Marieta Salas thought a lot of Marwan and got some very fine offspring by him. Justice has a crummy rear end.

Hansi - in general the people breeding to these stallions don't know the horses, don't know the pedigree and don't know what they're doing. Typical bandwagon mentality - playing "follow the leader" and hoping to cash in by riding on the coattails of those who promote their stallions in every magazine, bus stop bench and milk carton they can buy.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.


Gee Ray maybe you are getting old and cranky...... :Wine_glass_2: as to your reference of " neither stallion is Asil"...may I just say that Asil's are not excempt from either problem/condition and I might also like to add they have been known to also breed GPT, LFS and JE....any disscussion that talks about these genectic problems can only benifit the breed and I do mean the WHOLE breed be it Asil what ever ;)
How can we possibly right a wrong or educate others when even those amongst us feel it's is of no concern to them and breeding Asil only will protect them from the big picture. ;)

#20 hansi

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 01:37 AM

Hansi I understand you concerns regarding CA or Scid but it is alot easier today to breed and avoid the possiblities of haveing an affected foal. There are test that will minimise the chances of affected foals so no reason to breed blindly today for CA or Scid. :Wine_glass_2:

I'm so very pleased that stallion owners are becomming more, and more honest regarding the statis of their stallions and although you may not read it in their adds I have no doubt that many do the right thing and inform the mare owners regarding CA or Scid results on their stallions when they are contacted by mare owners. I also believe that new breeders have at this point an opportunity to be informed about genetic problems they may not have known about and although it is an added expence to have a mare tested the responibility must not fall on the stallion all the time. As stated before regarding Marwan it turned out the dam of Marajj was affected and hence it was bred on.

And regarding a CA affected horse being tested under saddle....Hansi most foals are put to sleep long before they reach an age to be saddle trained and if you have ever seen an affected foal you would understand why they would not live long enought to see a saddle.

The answer is to use the test available to avoid genetic problems if you feel concerned....there is however no test available for LFS, or JE or GPT so we are still at the mercy of stallion or mare owners to be honest and dissclose. ;)



Dear Trish

thank you for your explanation and opinion to which I agree.I have never seen a scid or ca horse, would not know what I be looking for. If I were to go to a reputable breeder I would expect to buy or breed from a horse without genetic problems. If explained to me, I would stay away.

It appears that this CA is even worse than SKID, although in either case the foal dies or is put to sleep. We never had a genetic problem in our herd, so forgive my ignorance.

Indeed I salute the breeders who coluntarily disclose and trust that they also explain to the buyer of horse or breeding what exactly is involved and it can do.

I dont think Ray meant it as bad as it sounds. He himself has some beautiful non-asils in his herd, he is very proud of.

thanks again and take care
Hansi :Wine_glass_2:
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



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