65 replies to this topic

[VanAlma]

In a quest for a new saddle for my Bubba, I ran across this commentary from a saddle maker. Thought it would be nice to pass along to those who are relatively new to riding & training Arabians. For those of us who have been riding them for some time we already know the headaches of fitting them correctly.

I hope this works: http://www.saddlewor...horse_60_1.html

[sheikh rissan]

VanAlma, on Dec 29 2009, 12:41 AM, said:

In a quest for a new saddle for my Bubba, I ran across this commentary from a saddle maker. Thought it would be nice to pass along to those who are relatively new to riding & training Arabians. For those of us who have been riding them for some time we already know the headaches of fitting them correctly    

I hope this works: http://www.saddlewor...horse_60_1.html

Yep, I am currently awaiting the saddler I always use to come and check Kali's saddle.  From having my previous stallion, I favour a dressage style saddle as this tends to allow freer shoulder action, and for my other horse, fit better.  Soon after I purchased a rather thinner Kali, I was fortunate enough to find a second hand, beautiful old dressage/show saddle on Ebay which I hoped would fit.  Indeed, it DID fit, and I can see no lumps and bumps on Kali's back, nor does he give me any strange look, nor turn away when I approach him with the saddle.  However, I knew that Kali's shape would change once he started to put weight and muscle back on, and so it's time for the saddler.

I feel that the saddle will be fine, but worry about pinching at the shoulders or below the withers.  Kali, whilst definitely having a wither, has a less pronounced one than Sheikh did, and his back is more muscled... he'd not lost any muscle or weight on his back at all when he was in poor condition, which is interesting.  I will own that he has a bit of a belly at present, but the increased exercise should sort that out soon.

As you article suggests, Kali is quite one sided at present, and is very resistant to bending on the left rein.  He is exercised consistently on that rein, but will have the Horse Physio soon, as I think he may have some residual problems from his time in the field etc...  The physio will now have to come after the saddler, as I don't want any soreness or odd muscle tone before the saddler comes.

And if, for any reason, the saddler says that this saddle does not suit Kali, then I will just have to purchase one that does.  I am not going to be responsible for damage to this horse's back because I "think" all will be fine.  It's really down to finding a saddler you trust implicitly, and sticking with them...  people all have their own ideas, but I have never found the guy I use suggesting anything to earn extra money etc.  It really does all appear to be about the horse.

Whew...  that was a long post.  I hope Kali will become less stiff on the left rein as we progress with his re-schooling...

I will let you know about the saddle.  You never know, what I find out may also be of help

Cheers
J

[VanAlma]

Yes, I hear you about 1 sidedness. Bubba will drive to the right rein but has not yet really driven to the left rein. Granted, he's very green and needs simple work but already is showing a distinct strength going to the left. I'm concerned with pressure at the shoulders so am looking for a dressage saddle for him. My saddle has a wide tree but is an all purpose and Bubba has a huge stride and I fear it might restrict him when I ask him for a true working trot or, eventually, extension. I'm still in the discovery phase under saddle. Hopefully I won't need a new one. It does, however, fit his back and wither well with balance and good clearance. He is unlike your horse in that his back isn't exceptionally well-muscled. I do feel he will put on quite a bit of mass once I can get him working harder.
Please keep us posted on the saddler's comments and recommendations.
On another note, what are your impressions of treeless saddles? I have never used one but have heard great things about them fitting Arabians well yet have heard negatives about back pressure.

[sheikh rissan]

Hiya

I've actually never used a treeless saddle.  I have heard about them, but have never needed to go away from what fit Sheikh in the past.  I had a lovely black Albion dressage saddle that fit him very well, and I took good care of it, so it was still perfect about 10 years after I got it!  Sadly it went to Spain when Sheikh emigrated there with my sharer, Debby.  Since he died, her daughter has been using it on her stallion (now gelded), and I was happy to see it go to good use, hence my new venture with this lovely old saddle!!  

If I remember, I'll ask my saddler about treeless saddles, and see what he thinks!

My horse, although broken to ride, is relatively green, and having had over a year off being chucked in a field with nothing asked of him apart from to cover a herd of mares (!).  He had not been exposed to moving traffic until I brought him to where he is now, and unfortunately just at the moment we have to stay on the yard, so he's being lunged or ridden in the school most days.  He doesn't seem to mind.  I also understand that he's never been hacked out, and I am really longing to show him how wonderful it is to trot up hills and along bridleways..... just the roadwork to get there that's the problem, but I will find a solution, I am sure.

I get what you mean about the shoulder movement, because Kali is beginning to show a really beautiful, powerful trot when asked on the lunge (even with the tack on - and the saddle so far doesn't interfere, in fact it doesn't move around on his back at all I don't think).  He will also offer this trot under saddle, if I get it right and keep my hands correct, and don't "give away" the contact.  I need him to use himself this way when we are out on the bridleways in the fullness of time, as it is a great way to keep them in condition and burn off steam..  I am so looking forward to this, but I want to be very sure that the saddle will allow him to extend his stride for more time than the limited exercise schooling in a manege can offer without compromising him..

Will keep you posted.

J

[spirit2005]

Since I have found the perfect solution for me and my arabians I want to share my experiences with others. Maybe it will be helpful. First I rode my horses with the treeless Torsion saddle and had never any problems. However I think, that the rider for this saddle should not be too heavy. Maybe I did not have problems, because of my low weight. But there were two things, which I disliked about it: The saddle has a very broad seat, which makes it difficult to sit properly for dressage. Also it looks "strange" and often other riders loughed about me and my strange saddle. Then I found the perfect solution: It is a treeless saddle that looks and works exactly like an english-style-saddle. I think bigger riders can use it, too. Inside there is a leather-tree, but it is still much more flexible than  the usual english-saddle. The greatest advantage is for me, that I can use one saddle for both horses. And I don't have to give it away to the saddler every time the body of my horse changes a little bit, which is annoying and expensive, too. I never have to be worried, that the saddle hurts my horses. And it is the only treeless saddle, that is accepted by the FEI. The brand is called "startrekk" and is located in germany. They also make treeless western-saddles. And an other plus for us arabian riders: the english-style saddle is quite short. One of my arabians has a very very short back, but as the 16,5'' saddle is only 42cm long it fits perfectly. Sway backs no problem, too. Of course the saddler-lobby and the tack-stores will hate this saddle, because they would have nothing to sell anymore. Believe me, I worked for years in a tack-store; of course we did'nt sell this saddle ;) But I would never use anything else.

Best regards

Nicole

[Zomorroda]

spirit2005, on Dec 31 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

Since I have found the perfect solution for me and my arabians I want to share my experiences with others. Maybe it will be helpful. First I rode my horses with the treeless Torsion saddle and had never any problems. However I think, that the rider for this saddle should not be too heavy. Maybe I did not have problems, because of my low weight. But there were two things, which I disliked about it: The saddle has a very broad seat, which makes it difficult to sit properly for dressage. Also it looks "strange" and often other riders loughed about me and my strange saddle. Then I found the perfect solution: It is a treeless saddle that looks and works exactly like an english-style-saddle. I think bigger riders can use it, too. Inside there is a leather-tree, but it is still much more flexible than  the usual english-saddle. The greatest advantage is for me, that I can use one saddle for both horses. And I don't have to give it away to the saddler every time the body of my horse changes a little bit, which is annoying and expensive, too. I never have to be worried, that the saddle hurts my horses. And it is the only treeless saddle, that is accepted by the FEI. The brand is called "startrekk" and is located in germany. They also make treeless western-saddles. And an other plus for us arabian riders: the english-style saddle is quite short. One of my arabians has a very very short back, but as the 16,5'' saddle is only 42cm long it fits perfectly. Sway backs no problem, too. Of course the saddler-lobby and the tack-stores will hate this saddle, because they would have nothing to sell anymore. Believe me, I worked for years in a tack-store; of course we did'nt sell this saddle ;) But I would never use anything else.

Best regards

Nicole

Hi Nicole,

they don't say anything about this 16,5", 42 cm long saddle on www.startrekk.de

Dressursattel mit tiefem Sitz und Kniepauschen. 5 verschiedene Kammerweiten die auch selber getauscht werden können. Gefüllte Kissen ( nicht austauschbar). Gewicht ca. 6kg Erhältlich in 2 verschiedenen Sitzgrößen ( S1 ca. 17,5“ ; S2 ca. 18,5“)
Bei Sitzgröße 1 beträgt die Sattellänge ca. 48 cm, bei Sitzgröße 2 beträgt die Sattellänge ca. 50 cm.
Sattelblattlänge Standard ca. 55cm Farben: chocolate oder schwarz

Is it another one you are talking about? One of my mares has a very short back, too.
Sabine

[sheikh rissan]

Whilst reading what Nicola and Sabine have posted, I have thought it might be interesting to measure my saddle.  I can't remember what size it was advertised as, but I know it was quite short..  I'll measure it tomorrow and let you know...

J

[spirit2005]

Hello Sabine!

There is also saddle-size S0 which is 16,5''. As far as I remember, this size is usually not in stock, because most clients need 17'' (= S1) or 18'' (= S2). I measured my own saddle (S0) and it is 42cm long. The first time I heard about this saddle was in a german horse-forum where people highly recommended the "sattelhaus". I bought my saddle there too and I can say they deserve their good reputation. I bought a "floor model" and it was a real bargain. You can lease a test-saddle for a low fee for example. They ship them by post. On their homepage are videos where you can see some of their saddles, but it is in german. Also there are jigs as pdf-files, so that you can measure which gullet width your horse needs.

Nicole

[Zomorroda]

spirit2005, on Jan 1 2010, 09:10 PM, said:

Hello Sabine!

There is also saddle-size S0 which is 16,5''. As far as I remember, this size is usually not in stock, because most clients need 17'' (= S1) or 18'' (= S2). I measured my own saddle (S0) and it is 42cm long. The first time I heard about this saddle was in a german horse-forum where people highly recommended the "sattelhaus". I bought my saddle there too and I can say they deserve their good reputation. I bought a "floor model" and it was a real bargain. You can lease a test-saddle for a low fee for example. They ship them by post. On their homepage are videos where you can see some of their saddles, but it is in german. Also there are jigs as pdf-files, so that you can measure which gullet width your horse needs.

Nicole

Hi Nicole,
thank you for your information. I will google the 'Sattelhaus', leasing a test-saddle is a great idea ... and as I am German I am glad the videos are in German :-)
Sabine

[sheikh rissan]

Sorry Nicole

I have just noticed that I mistyped your name...

[VanAlma]

sheikh rissan, on Dec 30 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

I get what you mean about the shoulder movement, because Kali is beginning to show a really beautiful, powerful trot when asked on the lunge (even with the tack on - and the saddle so far doesn't interfere, in fact it doesn't move around on his back at all I don't think).  He will also offer this trot under saddle, if I get it right and keep my hands correct, and don't "give away" the contact.  I need him to use himself this way when we are out on the bridleways in the fullness of time, as it is a great way to keep them in condition and burn off steam..  I am so looking forward to this, but I want to be very sure that the saddle will allow him to extend his stride for more time than the limited exercise schooling in a manege can offer without compromising him..

Well, your comments inspired me to get Bubba up and out off the farm. So, I took him for a ride today. I walked him half a mile down the street to an 80 acre field that my neighbor owns, past my mares yelling and dancing next to him, and with my 3 cute and intrusive dogs. Bubba doesn't know dogs so that was a learning experience all while on a new ride. He was wonderful. (He's at my mom's house down the street that's why he walked past my mares and just met my dogs)
The point is that I wanted to test my saddle at good work and right now my footing at the farm is not good. I have yet to set up a really nice riding area so it is muddy and not great for much more than a walk or slower trot. The saddle fared very well, Bubba practically could throw me out of the saddle when trotting and I could feel both the elevation and extension in his movement, which was exciting for me since this was the first time I let him do his thing with little/no interference from me. The saddle stayed fit, no excess movement, I felt solid and secure but mainly, his motion seemed completely unaffected by the saddle or me. I have never had that on a green horse! At the end of the ride, I asked him for the trot and he sprung into a canter, which I wasn't ready for so he settled back into a trot in 1 stride. I decided to ask him for the canter, our first time, and even though he isn't well-versed on it he picked it up and automatically lifted his neck and shoulder and sunk back on his hind end. We were actually going slightly downhill on solid ground so it was not fluke of physics that he has a rocking horse canter on both leads I'm still looking for a dressage saddle because I feel it will even be a better fit for us, but am happy to know my current saddle is not as restricting as I thought. That could change with condition and time, but for right now he's free as a bird! I wish I had taken pictures :(

[sheikh rissan]

Wow Kate!

Thanks for posting about your ride.  I bet you are really excited about it, certainly comes through on your post...  Fantastic, sounds great, and so pleased also that the saddle behaved itself as well as Bubba!

I bet he was really happy to be out and about.  I know it will be a while before Kali can be got across the road and off to the fantastic bridleways we have here, and Emma and I will have our work cut out to teach him that traffic isn't to be feared, but I am sure we will get there.  It just won't be next week!  In the meantime, just the manege for us.  Can't wait for the saddler to come now!

Best wishes
Julia

[whimzybeads]

I also ride in a treeless saddle.  It is a Freeform Frewest.  It's kind of a hybrid saddle in that it looks like both and English and western saddle.  I have done three endurance rides on it and Tyler has gotten perfect back scores each ride.  I LOVE my saddle.  I never have to worry about it hitting his big shoulders...never have to worry about it being too long and it only weighs about 12 lbs. with all the fittings.  Tyler has a great top line because of this saddle.  When we are clipping along at a fast pace, he will put his nose to the ground and fully stretch out.  It makes me feel better knowing there isn't a hard structure in there hindering that in any way.

[sheikh rissan]

Blast!  

Saddler called this AM to say that someone crashed into his van last night, taking off the wing mirror, without which he's not legal to drive, since he has no rearview mirror..  Balls.

He rebooked me for 15 Jan, which is OK.  I measured the saddle (finally) but have now lost the tapemeasure.  It is actually 17.5 inches, so Kali doesn't have a particularly short back, which is OK, as he's longstrided...  and I like that!

More after 15th!

J

[VanAlma]

Oh Darn. I was waiting to hear from you. Well I guess I'll just have to wait to the 15th.

[pucaru]

Here is an interesting article on straightness in horses by Deb Bennett:
Lessons from Woody

Hope this helps...

[sheikh rissan]

Hi Jenny

That was really interesting, and I've saved it for reading again later.  Many thanks
J

[VanAlma]

Fascinating read and I can almost feel what they are talking about. I've ridden more "right heavy" or "left - strong" horses than vice versa. Interesting that now I will look at foot size and shape as well to determine strong sides. I've also heard the side of the neck the mane tends towards - not where it is trained - is the weak side as it's falling away from the harder working shoulder. A great read. It will take another read or 2 to completely soak up but I enjoyed it tremendously. Makes me wanna go ride and feel what I'm doing wrong

[sheikh rissan]

Well.  The saddler has been.. The first thing he said with a bit of a "heart sink" face on him was that he really does not like the trees on Walsall Saddle Company saddles (and this is an old one of theirs).  We then put the saddle on the horse.  He said that the saddle was up at the front and down at the back, and he didn't think this would bode well at all.  However, otherwise, it fit fine, no pinching etc.  I got on and rode for a bit.  Kali hadn't been ridden for over a week because of the weather and because I have been away on business.  He has been lunged most days.
The school was a little "damp" but still rideable.  Saddler watched me and said that the saddle was definitely pressing down on his back.  This would effectively be blocking him and in fact he wasn't tracking up properly.  He had me perform a rising trot whilst the horse was stationary!!  Kali thought it was interesting, and didn't move a muscle.  He then showed me by putting his hand under the saddle, what a difference it would make.  He also said that the saddle was forcing my legs too far forward, and moved the leathers back to demonstrate a further improvement.  However in this saddle it is impossible to fit a gadget to position the leathers futher back, as the hook thing is angled downwards, and there's a danger they'd slip off if Kali "misbehaved" etc.

We agreed he'd do some reflocking and put inserts in to raise the back.  Whilst he was doing this we got to chatting and he felt that treeless saddles can be fine.  However, of course they must fit the horse, and it's just as bad if a treeless saddle doesn't fit the horse as if one with a tree doesn't...  He then mentioned that the saddles he makes/supplies in his opinion must all now have an adjustable tree, as morally and ethically he feels that it is his duty to ensure that his clients can do the best by the horse, should it change shape etc.

He recommended me getting a certain saddle with a certain tree which should then of course be fitted to Kali.  He was certainly not advocating a new one, nor one of his own.  He mentioned the rough price I could expect to pay.. etc.  Said that there was no immediate pressing rush to get the saddle, the next couple of weeks/months would be OK, but don't wait too long.

After a while, when he'd nearly finished rejigging Kali's saddle, I asked him what his own bespoke saddles were like.  He said he could have brought one if he'd known I might be interested....  We discussed those for a while, and he then mentioned that he'd agreed to buy one back recently as a client had lost her horse and didn't want the saddle around to remind her.  He told me the price he'd bought it back for.  I said I'd be interested to try one to see what they were like, as he'd worked on the design with a vet and a dressage rider and had gone through various prototypes etc.  Suddenly he remembered it was actually in his van!  He thought it might actually be too big for Kali, but because I said I'd like to at least sit in one on a horse, he went to get it.  Well.  It was a funny looking thing alright.  The seat is almost baroque.  It has very substantial knee rolls, and I thought it looked odd on the horse, from the front.  Not from the side, though.  Andrew explained and demonstrated to me that it has a flexible tree arrangement which flexes front to back and side to side which allows for dynamic movement of the spine (and horse).  It is also adjustable (see above).  Andrew was really surprised how well it fit Kali.  So I rode in it.
My goodness.  My horse suddenly was so much more keen to move forward.  I asked for trot and got a walk to canter transition!  I was amazed.  On the long side of the school he was much freer, and I could ride the impulsion very well.  Another thing.  On the stiff rein, he was much more willing to bend around my leg, and left off tipping his head out to the right to balance himself.  I have to say, that it felt strange when I first sat in it, but there was SUCH a difference in Kali's way of going that I was amazed.  I asked one of the other liveries (Sam) to come and please ride Kali around for a couple of minutes so that I could see what he looked like in it, ridden, and he looks FANTASTIC.  What a beautiful picture.  He was now tracking up and straight..

Andrew said I should keep the saddle for a couple of weeks and let Emma ride in it too to see if she also feels the difference.

This saddle is NOT cheap, but right now it needs no fitting for Kali, because it fits.  Saddler has shown me the "point fit" has shown me the balance, and has explained the dynamics of it etc.

If Emma also feels and sees a difference, then I will buy it.  I want what's right for him.

Hope that this assists in any way, and if there's something I said I'd ask that I didn't let me know and I will call Andrew.

Best wishes
Julia

[VanAlma]

Please send pictures of that saddle when you get them. I'd love to see what it looks like. Glad things worked out  
I have a question: how did the saddler know the saddle was pressing into him? What did he look for in the standing post? Other things? I'd be very interested to know. I think that happens a lot with Arabians but I always looked at it as "pinching" or "too small". "Pressing into" sounds to be pretty detrimental and would love to have ideas of how to spot it.