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Gaining Respect


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#1 janessa

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:34 PM

I went to visit a friend and her horse the other day. The entire time that she was trying to work with him he tried to bite and nibble at everything. He invaded personal space too and he would only stop nibbling for a few seconds before going at it again. This is her first horse and she got him a year ago, he is a coming 3 year old and I guess he just wasn't ever taught anything about respect. I am just looking to find advice to give her. I have had very young horses bite but they did that only when they first came to me, they learned quickly not to do so but he is at the stage where it has become a horrible habit.

She has had a local trainer out a few times to teach her how to work with him etc. He free lounges, ground drives, and has been saddled, and she has sat on him for a few seconds, but it took forever to do those things because he is such a pest.

#2 Angella

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:34 PM

some horses just do that more... I know Ali can be bad when he's bored. Thing is, it's not a vicious nibble... it's a playful one... and it is taking a lot to get him to understand that he cannot do that with me... it hurts me! I find, with him, that keeping him busy helps a great deal... no standing around in his paddock for me. Another thing that REALLY helps a lot is giving him a pasture mate. I find that with a pasture mate to play with, he doesn't feel the need to play with me and can buckle down to business a little better.

With Ali, lots of round penning and ground work... and insisting on him never ever entering my personal space... I enter his... helps. It has come... but slowly... first he learned respect for me in the round pen... then on the lead... then, finally, I had to take it to his paddock.

She may, inadvertently, be sending him the wrong message. He puts his head down, she steps the foot out of immediate reach, he learns that he can make her feet move. She must be dominant in every thing she does with him. She feeds him, he waits for permission to eat... then she makes him back off and wait for permission again if she feels like it. She says "move", he moves... she says stop... he stops. She says "go this way"... he goes this way... or else. And the repercussions, whatever she uses, must be instantaneous.

He sticks his nose in her space, she places her fingers on it then, sharply brings the palm of her hand down. The other thing that works is a small squirt gun that can be hidden inside the palm of your hand or a sleeve... she walks up with the gun pointed in his direction... he nibbles, she squirts without having to move to aim. Please note: I do NOT recommend a supersoaker for this... just a small squirt gun. The less reaction she shows in disciplining the better it works.

The other thing... I suspect she hand treats... that stops immediately. That's how Ali got started.

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#3 janessa

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 09:27 PM

I am not sure what she does when she feeds, but thanks so much for the advice! I will print your post off and give it to her. I love the idea of the small water gun too!

#4 VanAlma

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 09:38 PM

I have one that loves getting in personal space and nibbles, although playfull, it isn't appropriate. Have her give a bite on the nose with her hand like another horse would do if he got in another horse's space. It is easy and it doesn't need to be forceful. I've found that is way more useful than a tap/hit/slap etc because a biting feeling means something to a horse.

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#5 Angella

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:12 AM

I am not sure what she does when she feeds, but thanks so much for the advice! I will print your post off and give it to her. I love the idea of the small water gun too!


The other thing you should mention... my trainer twigged me on to this... it would never have occurred to me otherwise... when she feeds him, he MUST come in with his ears forward or be chased off the hay. If he comes in with his ears back and she simultaneously moves away... even though she was planning on doing so anyway... in his mind he's just moved her feet away from the hay.

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#6 Angella

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:15 AM

I have one that loves getting in personal space and nibbles, although playfull, it isn't appropriate. Have her give a bite on the nose with her hand like another horse would do if he got in another horse's space. It is easy and it doesn't need to be forceful. I've found that is way more useful than a tap/hit/slap etc because a biting feeling means something to a horse.


That's Ali... playfully inappropriate. But he's coming along really well. Last summer I was walking him and apparently a trailer that had been sitting in the same spot for months suddenly developed a craving for horse meat. He jumped, came into contact with me, and, without even so much as an ounce of pressure on me (but still keeping contact) ran around me and away from the horse eating trailer.

He came a loooong way from a fella that, even the summer before, would have run me down in his haste to survive the dreadful attack of the horse eating trailer...

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#7 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:32 AM

I have one of those pushy horses. A two year old colt - who is soooo playful and full of energy. I think he needs an older gelding to play with. He is very nippy - mouthy- we don't feed out of our hands - but I saw myself feeding him and letting him rush to the food - I didn't think of it as him dominating me - just that I was getting out of his way. He isn't mean - at all - he just can't control himself - although when haltered, he is very well behaved.

So, do I keep him haltered for everything that happens? Until he gets his brains back?

#8 Angella

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 09:10 AM

I have one of those pushy horses. A two year old colt - who is soooo playful and full of energy. I think he needs an older gelding to play with. He is very nippy - mouthy- we don't feed out of our hands - but I saw myself feeding him and letting him rush to the food - I didn't think of it as him dominating me - just that I was getting out of his way. He isn't mean - at all - he just can't control himself - although when haltered, he is very well behaved.

So, do I keep him haltered for everything that happens? Until he gets his brains back?



Problem is... horses don't think like we do. If he's coming in and you make way for him, you just told him he has top position in the herd. My trainer has a saying "A horse will respect whatever decision you make about leadership. If you decide you're the leader, he'll respect that. If you decide you're not the leader, he'll respect that decision too."

It is amazing, too, how little it takes... especially for the smart ones and most especially for the colts. Even turning your body if he's passing to closely can be seen as "moving aside" If he steps into your space, you step into his with more energy than he shows and you make him step away from you. When he is coming towards you, signal a stop (I use a raised hand and the word "whoa") and step towards him. He should stop... usually they will. If he doesn't stop just out of arm's reach, that raised hand comes down sharply around the time it would connect with his nose so his nose "runs into it" (be cautious, though, as you can break the small bone at the tip so don't hit where the bone ends). He'll stop then, and the next time you raise your hand and step forward it'll have some meaning to it.

He can, in fact, control himself... and if he was in a herd in the wild the mares would see to it that he did. If he is capable of controlling himself on their sayso he most certainly is capable of controlling himself on yours. The difference between him on the halter and him in the pen is more likely the difference between your confidence in being able to control, direct, and correct his behaviour on the lead vs your confidence in being able to conbtrol direct and correct his behaviour when he's loose and out of reach.

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Nejd's Alcahim (Masada el Bahim x GEA Alcia)

Mares
Nejd's Bintbint Tuhotmos (Masada el Bahim x AK Farah)

Adia Daal Aba (Sir Habbas Pasha x Fa Star Jasmine)

 

 


#9 VanAlma

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:42 PM

That's Ali... playfully inappropriate. But he's coming along really well. Last summer I was walking him and apparently a trailer that had been sitting in the same spot for months suddenly developed a craving for horse meat. He jumped, came into contact with me, and, without even so much as an ounce of pressure on me (but still keeping contact) ran around me and away from the horse eating trailer.

HA! I think we might have the same horse LOL. Even though he can get a little too into my space I am enamoured by him (usually).

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#10 sheikh rissan

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 05:26 PM

I am really delighted that we have this "Training Board" now, as I have realised that I had been letting Kali into my space when hanging his haynet. I have stopped this now, and he must stay several paces away whilst I hang it. The yard manager said when I asked her today that she has never let him get in her space in the stable. I wanted us to be doing the same thing.

He tried to turn in when on the lunge today, and I increased my energy when stepping towards him and chased him out again. I then had him follow my commands on the lunge, and finally stand whilst I approached. He did try this again later on the other rein, but again I stopped it (this is new behaviour by the way).

He has also started mouthing towards me occasionally when I lead him, and "lipping". That's to say he doesn't go to nip, he's just turning his muzzle in and opening his lips slightly. I used the technique mentioned by pinching him slightly, immediately he did this. He looked slightly surprised, inwardly digested it and did not try it again.

I don't want my boy to be "spoiled" and get above himself, so thanks for the tips.

Best wishes
Julia

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Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
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#11 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:57 PM

Problem is... horses don't think like we do. If he's coming in and you make way for him, you just told him he has top position in the herd. My trainer has a saying "A horse will respect whatever decision you make about leadership. If you decide you're the leader, he'll respect that. If you decide you're not the leader, he'll respect that decision too."

It is amazing, too, how little it takes... especially for the smart ones and most especially for the colts. Even turning your body if he's passing to closely can be seen as "moving aside" If he steps into your space, you step into his with more energy than he shows and you make him step away from you. When he is coming towards you, signal a stop (I use a raised hand and the word "whoa") and step towards him. He should stop... usually they will. If he doesn't stop just out of arm's reach, that raised hand comes down sharply around the time it would connect with his nose so his nose "runs into it" (be cautious, though, as you can break the small bone at the tip so don't hit where the bone ends). He'll stop then, and the next time you raise your hand and step forward it'll have some meaning to it.

He can, in fact, control himself... and if he was in a herd in the wild the mares would see to it that he did. If he is capable of controlling himself on their sayso he most certainly is capable of controlling himself on yours. The difference between him on the halter and him in the pen is more likely the difference between your confidence in being able to control, direct, and correct his behaviour on the lead vs your confidence in being able to conbtrol direct and correct his behaviour when he's loose and out of reach.


You are SO RIGHT! I have used that raised hand thing - I just never CAME DOWN with the hand - so it never posed any pressure for him to back off - he doesn't come forward with my raised hand - but is usually already in my space. I will work with that technique tonight if not sooner. I need to train my husband too. I know he isn't mean - we are just so darn fun for him. Thanks for this tip - I will let you know how it worked.

#12 sheikh rissan

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 08:33 PM

Good luck on training your husband! Let us know how it goes LOL :roflmao:
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#13 Kathy Bailey

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 11:29 PM

This is also really helpful to me as my colt is definitely in the "see how far I can push" stage and it's constant, you can never turn your back on him or he's waggling his head or pinning his ears or building himself up to do something.

So I really like hearing what others are going through and their tactics to tell him to back off and behave.

#14 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:21 AM

Good luck on training your husband! Let us know how it goes LOL :Wine_glass_2:



I just re-read my post -It did sound like I was going to "train" my husband. I didn't mean I was going to "train" my husband - although that would be nice if at all possible(but I don't think I will get anywhere with it). I did tell him about the raising of the hand -and I saw him use it tonight - it worked! My husband is new in the horse world and gets very frustrated at the colt - I wanted my husband to have a more authoritative and effective method than yelling and screaming at him.

#15 sheikh rissan

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:43 AM

I just re-read my post -It did sound like I was going to "train" my husband. I didn't mean I was going to "train" my husband - although that would be nice if at all possible(but I don't think I will get anywhere with it). I did tell him about the raising of the hand -and I saw him use it tonight - it worked! My husband is new in the horse world and gets very frustrated at the colt - I wanted my husband to have a more authoritative and effective method than yelling and screaming at him.


Hiya Acorn ...

I did know what you meant, of course, but I couldn't resist posting because when I first read your post, that's what it looked like! I thought it was funny... :-)

Aside from that I am glad that your husband has tried the new method and it worked. I am sure they will both come along much better if they start to understand each other.

Best wishes
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#16 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 02:24 PM

I was much more assertive this morning than I usually would be - and I didn't back down until he did (the colt) When he backed off and actually left me - I put my arm down and went about my business. I have been a pushover for so long - it will take a lot of retraining of me to get the effectiviness down pat. Then - my husband better watch out!!!!

#17 sheikh rissan

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 02:44 PM

Well done, you. I am sure your colt will "get" the new hierarchy very soon. He would have to get it if he moved into a new herd, after all.

BW
J
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#18 janessa

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:15 PM

Some very good advice here! :bigemo_harabe_net-03: Thanks everyone

#19 Heidi

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:41 PM

A good swift kick backwards on pushy colts works wonders.

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#20 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:47 AM

That little colt got a bit pushy tonight - I didn't have him haltered - and I went in to shoo him outside so I could clean his stall - He turned his back on me and threatened to kick me - he didn't actually strike out at me - but he threatened - I didn't have anything in my hand - so I did do some yelling - then he turned toward me - I grabbed a halter - then no problem. So, he was acting up outside - all by himself - so I didn't care, but I made him behave before he could come in - made him back up (on lead) and wouldn't let him rush in (it was feeding time). Then I tied him - made him stay there until I was ready to let him loose. Wasn't very long - just the point of it all. Really P*ssed me off. Why is it I never have what I need when I need it. I hate that I got myself in that position. I know it is my fault - he had that opportunity. Really disappointed in myself and my lack of command for respect. :5298_orcspash:



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