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Gaining Respect


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#41 Desert Tag Arabians

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 11:51 PM

Do you have any cones, or tarps? You can also use empty trash cans, empty feed sacks, or if you have any of those small, push-in posts (not the t-metal stakes, but the little ones people use around their gardens) you can tie rope from each post. Anything you can use that makes mazes and obstacles he has to walk through, over and around will work.

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#42 Tricia

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 04:18 AM

Once the mud dries up I can try some of that - but first I need to at least be able to get him to walk with me - at this point putting anything in his path that might startle or spook him could get me hurt. I know you have done a great job with Turbo so I value your suggestions!

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#43 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:30 PM

I am going to have to try the chain over the nose for the 2 yr old colt I have. I just didn't want his nose all scared up- and was afraid of how fast that could happen. I do use a Clinton Anderson halter on this horse almost all of the time, and he really respects that. But it may not be enough for him. He has been better since I have equipped myself with a long whip - don't even have to use it - but my confidence is so great when I have it - he leaves me alone. Oh - and if he has hay in his stall he could care less what I am doing in there.

#44 Tricia

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:49 PM

I have never had any problem with the chain over the nose when I wrap it around the noseband - it still has enough bite to get the horse's attention, but there is enough restraint to prevent damage - never had even a mark left.

Stallions need to be taken seriously, no matter how gentle they are - they are still horses and it only takes a second for something to go terribly wrong. I know exactly what you mean about the whip giving you confidence - I feel the same way.

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#45 Tyger Pines

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 02:25 AM

This is a very interesting topic. We have all had problems like these at one time or another. So, I'll throw in my two cents knowing full well that what works for me probably won't work for anyone else.

Anytime I'm dealing with a horse, it is learning something but it may not be something I want it to learn. Reinforcement, positive or negative, must be delivered in a very timely fashion or it is extremely likely I am reinforcing the wrong behavior. In ground training, the first thing I want to achieve is gaining the horse's respect.

I'm not a very good horse trainer. But over the years I have noticed that horses are exellent horse trainers. I don't have the talent to teach the horse everything so I let the horse help me train it. I like to start with something the horse already knows. At a very early age, horses learn the rules of pecking order etiquette at meal time i.e. the ranking horse get first dibs on the food. So I use the feeders as my training aid. My position is that the feeder and anything in it are mine. I will allow a horse to partake if I feel like it. Otherwise, I want him to back off. My goal is for him to back off with just a look from me. I don't always achieve that. Sometimes it takes a look and a hand gesture or a step toward him. And I have vocal sound that I can best spell as "Aannnnh!"

At some point, the horse will submit to the reality that I am No.1 and he is No. 2. And that relationship carries over to other situations. I can move him out of my space with whatever cue moves him away from the feeder. If he doesn't seem to be responding well - at the gate, for example - I take him back to the feeder and work him some more. I had a gelding - Khomander, a Khofo son - who was the boss of any paddock he was in until his death at 26. His technique to establish respect was to deny any new arrival access to the water trough for 3-4 hours. So, it can take some time.

I try not to use artificial aids like whips and bats for two reasons. First, if I need to correct undesireable behavior, I miss my chance if I don't have my accessory with me. And second, horses learn very quickly to behave when you have your whip with you but perhaps not when you don't.

I used the masculine pronoun throughout because most of my challenges have been with colts. With colts, I believe it is particularly important to start in a situation they understand like feed bowl etiquette. If they don't understand what you want, they are particularly adept at turning it into a counter-productive game. Learning has occured but not what you had in mind.

FWIW
Tommy

#46 Zomorroda

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 09:21 AM

I'll try that flicking the wrist thing, Angella. THanks. I just hope I am coordinated enough to do it without hitting myself!! :wacko:

This morning I walked the fence line in the front pasture and was about 2/3 of the way done when Karim realized I was there. He came flying and stopped a few feet from me. I had taken a whip with me and when he started getting too close I snapped it a couple times and he got a surprised look on his face - he didn't know what to do so he advanced again and I repeated snapping the whip. He got the idea and showed me what he thought of it with a couple little buckish hops, looked at me and when I held my ground that tail went up in the air and off he went back to the other pasture. I think that round went to me!!!

I have tried shaking the lead many times - it simply doesn't faze him. He will just raise his head and then if I don't stop he gets the lead in his mouth and carries it around. Sucks on it and gets it all slimy!! I would buy him a pacifier if I could find one his size!!!

It only took one day to teach the new mare to back up in her stall on just a word command - just flicked my hand at her and told her back while stepping into her space - she got it and realized that it meant I would be putting grain in her box - she was easy. I find that boys seem to think more - they love to test and tease where mares agree to whatever I ask just so long as I keep the food coming. :PerspectMA19366318-0001:

The suggestions here have me feeling hopeful that I can get back in control - I really appreciate the help!


Hi Tricia,

Karim reminds so much of Karima - they are real brother and sister in mind and name.

I told above of the problems which arouse with her - that she started to check with me who is the Alpha in the stable but not at work. I was very confused about the split of behaviour, but you describe the same ...

Karima also flys to me when I call her, but she also does (I realized this now) when I make her move: she runs away but after that she stops, turns and starts to gallop straight towards my - I just have to raise my hand to stop her. She never tried to run over me, but she moves into my space very very fast. I always loved that game but with her behaviour now I rethought it. I now chase her away if she comes to close to fast and she looks at me the same as Karim seems to look at you: astonished what's that? I also remember her being in a bigger herd. She behaved very alpha-lik even as a little foal. And the leader of the herd chased her away strongly, she was not allowed to come any close. He told her: keep away, and stay there. So I did the same - our trainer forced me so too. And after a longer while she had to stay away, I should allow her to come close. At the first time she didn't come when I invited her. So I left her and said, I don't care. The second day I did it, she also didn't like the chasing, she showed off, made herself big and important, but I didn't let her come close. The she stood maybe 30 mtrs away - looking at me and - waiting. When I invited her, she came - slowly. This felt good .... (Even if I miss the gallop-game.)

The same with her about shaking a rope. You cannot impress her with that. Even not when it touches her, she mostly just looks at it with a face saying: ah, don't bother me you stupid little thing. What I learned from my trainer is: move her hind (away from me) by walking towards it starting from her head walking a little circle towards her hind. Walk clearly ask clearly for way, means make yourself big while wipping the end of the rope saying something like: it will bite you very soon if you don't move away. Important: be prepared to use it if she doesn't. So I do this exercise when she does not listen.

Also similar the moving back-thing: it is the most difficult thing for her. Our trainer says: Karima is a strong character and it is hard for her to do this. So even a small movement and step back is a big thing for her. When she learned it first, we did it in very little steps. Now she does it but she doesn't like it until today. Our trainer says every horse has his or her special exercises that are hard for them. But always insist of getting the right answer, even it is small at first (in learning process).

I myself always have to be carefull with Karima that I don't start to fight with her mentally. I know I am loosing my cool leader image if I do so. But I am also human. So we have to restart sometimes ... and I think the most important thing is having a plan. I always try to figure one out. Sometimes it lasts longer to find the right one ...

The hardest thing for me was to overcome my own sadness about her change of habit, I was in an inner conflict with her and myself, but she shows so obvious that she is in between of being my baby and the grown up horse she will be.

I realize this most by missing one special thing she did as a baby and young horse - since she stopped it a few month ago: when I used to brush her head, she used to stick her nose under my arm - the more it smelled there, the better she liked it. It always has been a very special moment of intimacy between us. I always thought it must feel like a foal thing for her putting the nose behind mamas hind leg to find the place of milk and honey. ... I don't know if I am right - just my interpretation.

I don't know if this might help you in any way, but I just wanted to let you know ...
Good luck with Karim he is such a wonderful boy.

Sabine
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#47 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 01:58 PM

This is a very interesting topic. We have all had problems like these at one time or another. So, I'll throw in my two cents knowing full well that what works for me probably won't work for anyone else.

Anytime I'm dealing with a horse, it is learning something but it may not be something I want it to learn. Reinforcement, positive or negative, must be delivered in a very timely fashion or it is extremely likely I am reinforcing the wrong behavior. In ground training, the first thing I want to achieve is gaining the horse's respect.

I'm not a very good horse trainer. But over the years I have noticed that horses are exellent horse trainers. I don't have the talent to teach the horse everything so I let the horse help me train it. I like to start with something the horse already knows. At a very early age, horses learn the rules of pecking order etiquette at meal time i.e. the ranking horse get first dibs on the food. So I use the feeders as my training aid. My position is that the feeder and anything in it are mine. I will allow a horse to partake if I feel like it. Otherwise, I want him to back off. My goal is for him to back off with just a look from me. I don't always achieve that. Sometimes it takes a look and a hand gesture or a step toward him. And I have vocal sound that I can best spell as "Aannnnh!"

At some point, the horse will submit to the reality that I am No.1 and he is No. 2. And that relationship carries over to other situations. I can move him out of my space with whatever cue moves him away from the feeder. If he doesn't seem to be responding well - at the gate, for example - I take him back to the feeder and work him some more. I had a gelding - Khomander, a Khofo son - who was the boss of any paddock he was in until his death at 26. His technique to establish respect was to deny any new arrival access to the water trough for 3-4 hours. So, it can take some time.

I try not to use artificial aids like whips and bats for two reasons. First, if I need to correct undesireable behavior, I miss my chance if I don't have my accessory with me. And second, horses learn very quickly to behave when you have your whip with you but perhaps not when you don't.

I used the masculine pronoun throughout because most of my challenges have been with colts. With colts, I believe it is particularly important to start in a situation they understand like feed bowl etiquette. If they don't understand what you want, they are particularly adept at turning it into a counter-productive game. Learning has occured but not what you had in mind.

FWIW
Tommy



This is a good thought - our colt is terribly aggressive at his feed bowl. We have a set up with a feed door - and we open it - throw the pellets in and close it. I usually don't go in with him at feed time - because he is so aggressive.

So - since you don't use the artificial aids - how would one establish being the boss - with an aggressive horse without the use of aids? When food is around he is nuts. Once the hay is out he is great - even docile. He is worse in the cold - and I have given too much leeway - need to recapture it. But how without a whip?(I don't hit him with it - unless he does something toward me - but just hang on to it)

#48 Tricia

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 03:53 PM

Tommy, I have read your post with great interest - all good comments there! I feed Karim out in pasture so it limits my control, although I do make him wait until I am ready to empty the scoop - he will do a lot of head tossing and sometimes will turn and walk away, then come back, but he does accept that I am boss. Grudgingly.

I do feel that when I am out in pasture I need to carry something, however - my disabilities make me very vulnerable and I want that edge so that I can maintain alpha status. Hopefully, with the passage of time as Karim matures it will no longer be necessary. Much as I love colts, I don't trust them and in a 5 acre pasture I am at the mercy of the horse unless I can keep the upper hand.

Thanks for your input - I hope you will offer more insights!

Sabine, reading your words raised my spirits and took a weight off my shoulders. I see I am not alone in what I am dealing with and Karim has a twin sister!! :PerspectMA19366318-0001: Karima is so much like Karim and you and I seem to think a lot alike. I, too, miss some of the special things Karim used to do, but our problem is mostly that he is a stallion and wants to nip so I no longer allow the physical closeness. He knows he is not supposed to nip at me, and he never actually connects but he likes to play with me - grabbing sleeves, nibbling shoes, mouthing anything he can get hold of. As I stand there saying "no" I can see the wheels turning in his head!! I am always on guard because I know one day he will cross that line and actually nip me - and I really hate pain!! :wacko:

I also have loved that gallop to me but I do think it needs to be stopped. Initially he did it because I was there and he wanted to be with me - I had no fear that he wouldn't stop in time. Now, though, I am sensing something else in him added to that - like he is testing to see if he can show dominance. I can't allow that so I will have to stop him sooner. There is no way I can keep him from galloping to me but I want to see a change in his attitude. At one point I had nine horses and I loved to go out late at night. It was an eerie feeling on nights that were totally dark to hear the sound of all those hooves thundering toward me and not being able to see the horses - and then suddenly they would materialize right where I was standing, all soft and gentle and nickering to me - of course, those were MARES!! I loved those special moments.

Karim and I have been together since the moment of his birth and he became very attached to me immediately. I was watching on a monitor in the house and hurried out to the barn when I saw he was coming. When I opened the stall door the mare was lying with her back to me and Karim was just coming - he sort of oozed out into the aisle so I was the first living being he saw - and he got up and walked along the aisle sniffing the stalls and then came back to me before he ever met his mama. My feeling is that he accepted me as another mama and gave me the same respect she got. He has never given me any real problems and while we have a situation right now that could be dangerous for me, I feel confident now that we will get through it and move on - he's not quite 4 yrs old yet so he's still got some maturing to do - and like my sons in their teenage years, that means he will test me, torment me, and make mistakes - but eventually he will grow up and, with luck, his brain will overrule his hormones!! (Well, I can hope, can't I?? :lol2: )

Just a thought here - Karim grew up in a small herd environment but little by little I sold off the other horses. Now he is alone out in that pasture and I see him being watchful and alert - do you think not having the security of a herd may be causing his more aggressive behavior? There are woods on threes sides of that pasture and plenty of wildlife.

Tricia


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#49 Angella

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 03:23 AM

That and the sheer boredom of it. I have put Ali in with another stallion and five geldings. I did so because he had reached the point where when I was putting him back in his pen he'd begin to act up as I was latching the chain... knowing that I would have to go in to the paddock to correct the behaviour. I moved him in with the herd, and he's been good as gold ever since.

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#50 Tyger Pines

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 01:17 PM

This is a good thought - our colt is terribly aggressive at his feed bowl. We have a set up with a feed door - and we open it - throw the pellets in and close it. I usually don't go in with him at feed time - because he is so aggressive.

So - since you don't use the artificial aids - how would one establish being the boss - with an aggressive horse without the use of aids? When food is around he is nuts. Once the hay is out he is great - even docile. He is worse in the cold - and I have given too much leeway - need to recapture it. But how without a whip?(I don't hit him with it - unless he does something toward me - but just hang on to it)


Obviously, a horse that is aggressive around his food bowl can be a dangerous animal. How old is the colt and what exactly do you mean by "terribly aggressive"? Is he just pushy or does he come at you with ears back and teeth bared? Can you stand inside the stall while he is eating? Was he socialized with other horses after he was weaned or did he immediately go into stallion isolation? How does he lead? Can you lunge him? Is he OK with the farrier, vet, etc.?

Tommy

#51 VanAlma

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 06:43 PM

Just following up on everyone's respect "issues" for lack of a better way to put it. Any progress? Lessons to share?

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#52 Acorn-Arabians

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 07:38 PM

Obviously, a horse that is aggressive around his food bowl can be a dangerous animal. How old is the colt and what exactly do you mean by "terribly aggressive"? Is he just pushy or does he come at you with ears back and teeth bared? Can you stand inside the stall while he is eating? Was he socialized with other horses after he was weaned or did he immediately go into stallion isolation? How does he lead? Can you lunge him? Is he OK with the farrier, vet, etc.?

Tommy


Hi Tommy,

He is two now - and my opinion of terribly aggressive is he does pin his ears and comes at us - but I have started to make him wait until he brings his ears forward before I put his pellets in his bin. Yes - I can stand right there and play with his ears or what ever I want to while he is eating. I will walk into his stall - with my handy stick. Don't have to hit him, just have it with me. When I posted this originally - he did turn his back on me and threaten me with kicking. I didn't have anything with me - so it did un-nerve me. He was with his mother and another mare and filly until he was around 8-9 months old. Then I separated them. I can halter him easily - catch him outside in his paddock - he really isn't all that mean - but aggressive with food. Like I starve him or something. LOL. He leads fine - ok with the farrier and vet. He is mouthy. Lunging is another story. I don't have a round pen - and I am not very good with ground work. It is hard for me to "demand" for him to lunge. Not that I don't try. I can get him to do it - but he does act like a big a** stallion. Rearing - kicking - but he will go around me eventually. He did very well in a round pen - when I had him at a professional for halter training. Unfortunately it is hard for me to keep up with his training. I can tie him and leave him tied while I clean his stall - but I do take him out of the stall to do it. I can shave his head - alone.

I think I painted a picture of a very disorderly horse - when he really isn't as bad as I make it out to be. I just have a low tolerance for ill behavior. I am tending towards gelding him - although I really believe he should stay a stallion. I just don't think I can handle a stallion. And I think I should follow my instincts on being able to handle the horses I have - although he is for sale!

#53 Tricia

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:57 PM

Karim has been much better about leading so long as I use a chain over the nose (wrapped around the noseband so as not to do any damage) The weather has been too bad to do much - snow, rain, cold, etc. And this time of year is the worst for me - I can barely walk and have too much pain in my hands, shoulders, knees and ankles to do much of anything. Once school is out my friend's daughter is going to start working with him a bit.

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#54 Zomorroda

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:22 PM

Just a littel update on Karima:

We are doing much better and I find the learnings we have very interesting maybe for you horsepeople these things are obvious and more clear, but sometimes I need some more time to understand - or accept. I changed three things. There is one main issue - I think. And two other little things. I also changed my attitude about the whole thing, don't concentrate on her ears to much - because I think this is what a horse of a lower herd position would do. I try just to behave more normal treating her and not to watch her ears all the time. And to stay cool.
I think the main mistake I made is an emotional one. As you now I have two mares. Zomorroda was the first. She did choose me so clearly and strongly and our relation is so special, very different from the one I have to Karima. Karimas and my relation did grow with time and developed into a strong one - I could never tell I love this one more or the other one. ... They are totally different characters, we have totally different relations.
But these two horses are one herd and Karima is the boss. Karima is going to be five on the 3. of April. Zomorroda turned 9 in march. And if I am honest I didn't like that Karima is the boss of the two. That's why I always tried to give Zomorroda a bit more, because I would have loved to give her the position of her age. And also - because she has had a hard life being without other horses since she was 6. These have been my feelings. Which are human ones I know.
The fact is: Karima is the stronger horse, she is born in Germany, she knows how life is going here and she just has another character. You cannot really frighten her. You cannot really chase her. She is too cool for that. And she shows what she thinks in her face, which is really amazing ... well.
I told you that she is working well and with a lot of respect but she behaves strange in the stable. I realized, that everything is fine with us, when we are alone. The hierarchy is clear. But when we are the three of us, she has to show her position (maybe because I didn't give her the right position she has in the two-horse-herd? ... sorry for my bad English :-( ) I always started all treatments with Zomorroda first, I was feeding her first ... When I brush Karima, I do it in front of Zomorrodas box, so we are in a three herd position. Anyway I think the problem was a hierarchy problem caused by me not accepting Karimas position. And I changed these things. I feed her first. And I brush her first or do something little with her first when I want to brush Zomorroda a.s.o.

And it is very interesting. Karima is much more relaxed now. You see it in her face and how she behaves ... all this.

The two other little things I changed: I bought a new brush, and she seems to like this one much more. And I started to give her a homeopathic treatment to calm down her skin touch sensitivity ..

I hope you can understand what I am trying to say .... I should do some English lessons again.

@ Tricia, good to hear that Karim is doing better also ... I think somewhere in the universe there is a band between these two :1233_hand_clapping:

Sabine
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proudly owned by the three Straight Egyptian mares
Zomorroda Aal Hanafi (*2001 Khaled Sqr. x Helwa (Gad Allah x Arzak)) - imported from Egypt
Ghazaleh SH (* 2011 KP Maryoom x Zomorroda Aal Hanafi)
Har Karima (* 2005 NK Ibn Leyl x Kalifa El Nile)
and my wonderful White Shepherd
LUG

#55 sheikh rissan

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 02:04 PM

Hi Sabine

What you have written is very clear, thank you.... And I think you are very right, about having disrupted the hierarchy. It is obvious that your current management/treatment is better in an equine way.


Thank you for your insight into your new management strategy.

I do think it's great that we all share here.


In the meantime, I have moved Kali and am also finding that he now really DOES NOT LIKE his neck and face brushed. It doesn't matter which brush I use, he is telling me it is annoying. I don't know why, and so now I have to rub the mud off his face before I bridle him. I also try to only groom these areas after we ride or exercise.

Kali is now MUCH more relaxed when being ridden (he was getting too tense and trying I think too hard to please, and was over-salivating on the bit). Phil, who is now his main rider apart from me is doing wonders with him in this regard, and he is going back to basics (as am I). He will be hacked out this week for the first time (ridden in the countryside). This will be a first for him and so I'd rather Phil did it. After that I will get to go on accompanied hacks until I know the tracks myself, then I can go out alone...

I can't tell you how much it means to me that I have a relaxed, happy, loved horse.
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#56 Zomorroda

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 08:58 PM

Hi Sabine

What you have written is very clear, thank you.... And I think you are very right, about having disrupted the hierarchy. It is obvious that your current management/treatment is better in an equine way.


Thank you for your insight into your new management strategy.

I do think it's great that we all share here.


In the meantime, I have moved Kali and am also finding that he now really DOES NOT LIKE his neck and face brushed. It doesn't matter which brush I use, he is telling me it is annoying. I don't know why, and so now I have to rub the mud off his face before I bridle him. I also try to only groom these areas after we ride or exercise.

Kali is now MUCH more relaxed when being ridden (he was getting too tense and trying I think too hard to please, and was over-salivating on the bit). Phil, who is now his main rider apart from me is doing wonders with him in this regard, and he is going back to basics (as am I). He will be hacked out this week for the first time (ridden in the countryside). This will be a first for him and so I'd rather Phil did it. After that I will get to go on accompanied hacks until I know the tracks myself, then I can go out alone...

I can't tell you how much it means to me that I have a relaxed, happy, loved horse.


Thank you Julia for supporting my English :)

just a quick thought for Kalis 'problem' with the head/neck brushing. When the problem appeared with Karima, the first thing I had to do (our trainer was telling me) check the teeth - because when they work more head down and the teeth don't glide easily with the bowing of the neck (auf deutsch: wenn sich die Zhne dabei verhaken) they get problems with their head/neck area - just an idea - to be sure it is not the reason.
Karima had problems with this and it was better after the horse dentist helped her.

By the way - how was Frankfurt, did you have a good time?

Sabine
Sabine

proudly owned by the three Straight Egyptian mares
Zomorroda Aal Hanafi (*2001 Khaled Sqr. x Helwa (Gad Allah x Arzak)) - imported from Egypt
Ghazaleh SH (* 2011 KP Maryoom x Zomorroda Aal Hanafi)
Har Karima (* 2005 NK Ibn Leyl x Kalifa El Nile)
and my wonderful White Shepherd
LUG

#57 sheikh rissan

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:50 PM

Hi Sabine

Ja. ich habe seine Zaehne schon behandeln lassen. I had his teeth seen to twice. The first time (in October) no particular problems. After he banged his facial crest and hurt himself, my vet checked and there were a couple of problems and a loose tooth. I had his teeth rasped so that the bit would sit better, and it's true, it does! Also I think the loose tooth (he must have really banged his head) has settled down now. Not so the "telling me off" for brushing. He just "asks" me to please not do it. He will even rest his head on my shoulder.

He is itchy in his sheath area, and when he has the vet to do the stallion licence (here they just check the horse is of breeding quality and has two descended testicles... AHS Eintragung 100 and vet's bill a bit more than that!! Schweinerei) I have asked the vet to swab him in case he has an infection (from all those mares LOL). It may just be that he's saying "don't groom me there, scratch me THERE!). When he rests his head on my shoulder, sometimes he is saying "scratch MY shoulder". That is clear. But when he turns his head sharply to me, he most definitely seems to be saying "please don't groom my neck".

Such a shame there are communication difficulties between species, I feel.

J
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#58 sheikh rissan

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:54 PM

Hi Sabine

Ja. ich habe seine Zaehne schon behandeln lassen. I had his teeth seen to twice. The first time (in October) no particular problems. After he banged his facial crest and hurt himself, my vet checked and there were a couple of problems and a loose tooth. I had his teeth rasped so that the bit would sit better, and it's true, it does! Also I think the loose tooth (he must have really banged his head) has settled down now. Not so the "telling me off" for brushing. He just "asks" me to please not do it. He will even rest his head on my shoulder.

He is itchy in his sheath area, and when he has the vet to do the stallion licence (here they just check the horse is of breeding quality and has two descended testicles... AHS Eintragung 100 and vet's bill a bit more than that!! Schweinerei) I have asked the vet to swab him in case he has an infection (from all those mares LOL). It may just be that he's saying "don't groom me there, scratch me THERE!). When he rests his head on my shoulder, sometimes he is saying "scratch MY shoulder". That is clear. But when he turns his head sharply to me, he most definitely seems to be saying "please don't groom my neck".

Such a shame there are communication difficulties between species, I feel.

J
Julia

Kalinin ibn Baletina - 2001 Metallic Chestnut Stallion, Double Balaton
Strain: Hadban Enzahi (TF Elsissa DB 1870)
SCID, CA and LFS Clear.. Testing Centre VHL Holland

Sire: Kais
Pakistan (Kumir/Panagia) x Proba (Balaton/Palmira)
Dam: Baletina bint Inez
Balaton (Menes/Panagia) x Indirah bint Inez (Kauri/Shams el Inez)


Al Zomorood Arabian Stud

Allbreed Pedigree - Kalinin ibn Baletina

#59 Zomorroda

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

Hi Sabine

Ja. ich habe seine Zaehne schon behandeln lassen. I had his teeth seen to twice. The first time (in October) no particular problems. After he banged his facial crest and hurt himself, my vet checked and there were a couple of problems and a loose tooth. I had his teeth rasped so that the bit would sit better, and it's true, it does! Also I think the loose tooth (he must have really banged his head) has settled down now. Not so the "telling me off" for brushing. He just "asks" me to please not do it. He will even rest his head on my shoulder.

He is itchy in his sheath area, and when he has the vet to do the stallion licence (here they just check the horse is of breeding quality and has two descended testicles... AHS Eintragung 100 and vet's bill a bit more than that!! Schweinerei) I have asked the vet to swab him in case he has an infection (from all those mares LOL). It may just be that he's saying "don't groom me there, scratch me THERE!). When he rests his head on my shoulder, sometimes he is saying "scratch MY shoulder". That is clear. But when he turns his head sharply to me, he most definitely seems to be saying "please don't groom my neck".

Such a shame there are communication difficulties between species, I feel.

J


Yeah, that's so true ... Karimas new brush is more a scratch thing then a groom thing. With her it seems that this was her point: please scratch me, don't groom. I think this new one does help her better with the change of hair also. As Kali also is a chestnut, maybe he is similar skin touch sensitive as she is? Did you try homeopathic treatment for example with Urtica (Brennessel). I give Karima Urtica D12 - 7 drops 2x a day for several weeks. Especially when she changes her hair. It seems to help her.

If he banged his head so badly, maybe he still has some pain in his head/neck area? Maybe an osteopath could help? Just an idea. If there is a bang and a strong pain the muscles around tie together and they don't get loose by themselves again - this was explained by an osteopath to me and I think it makes much sense that the pain can stay there for a long time. There is also an interesting book called 'Stresspunktmassage' by a man called Claus Teslau. I tried some things out he is writing about, and it was very interesting to see the reaction of the girls ...

Sabine
Sabine

proudly owned by the three Straight Egyptian mares
Zomorroda Aal Hanafi (*2001 Khaled Sqr. x Helwa (Gad Allah x Arzak)) - imported from Egypt
Ghazaleh SH (* 2011 KP Maryoom x Zomorroda Aal Hanafi)
Har Karima (* 2005 NK Ibn Leyl x Kalifa El Nile)
and my wonderful White Shepherd
LUG

#60 Century Oak

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 02:56 PM

The other thing you should mention... my trainer twigged me on to this... it would never have occurred to me otherwise... when she feeds him, he MUST come in with his ears forward or be chased off the hay. If he comes in with his ears back and she simultaneously moves away... even though she was planning on doing so anyway... in his mind he's just moved her feet away from the hay.



Hey that works pretty good on my husband too :ww: He learned real fast to stay sweet or no supper! :P

As far as horses I can only echo everything that's been said. One of the big biggies with my young colts, geldings and stallions - and for that matter pushy mares too is that if they get pushy or cranky about feed, I will pour the feed then stand there over it pushing them off it until I'm ready to back away on my own time. This worked phenominally well with Jasoor when he was going through puberty and just being a general sh*t about everything and anything.

For my own though, I do give hand treats but with a limit on their behavior. I don't want to not be able to give them something from my hand but again it's on my terms. Typically young horses are mouthy and will do this until they get older then it seems to be something they grow out of. As long as you make sure it's on your terms and not theirs you are good, just remember you are always training regardless of what you are doing with them.

On a side note, with Jasoor when he got mouthy and nippy we played the tongue game, he likes his tongue rubbed so when he wanted to be mouthy I'd say no, tap his muzzle with my finger and say "tongue" and he would stick his tongue out to be rubbed. He still loves this to this day as a big grown up 7 year old stallion and will INSIST you rub his tongue. It worked to give him an outlet without denying his oral fixation completely. What is realy funny is when he does this to the judge in SHIH classes :ww: They are not always real sure what to make of this white stallion standing there in his dressage bridle, with his eyes closed and his tongue hanging out while he wags it at them saying RUB ME! :6644_064:
Mental Meanderings Of A Barn Goddess

Guardian still to: Zandai Jasoor (Zandai Ibn Omar x Glorieta Saqlima) & Impress Rissala (Imtaarif x Zandai Om Roda)

Donna Sabatine
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Now serving Southeastern USA as well as South Central USA



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