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#1 Demelza

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:01 AM

A new view on dam lines in Polish Arabian horses based on mtDNA analysis
Iwona Głażewska1 , Anna Wysocka1, Barbara Gralak2, Renata Prus1 and Jerzy Sell1
1 Department of Genetics and Cytology, University of Gdańsk, Kładki 24, 80-822 Gdańsk, Poland
2 Polish Academy of Sciences Institute of Genetics and Animal Breeding, Jastrzębiec, 05-552 Wólka Kosowska, Poland
author email corresponding author email

Genetics Selection Evolution 2007, 39:609-619doi:10.1186/1297-9686-39-5-609

The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.gsejourna...ontent/39/5/609

Received: 5 December 2006
Accepted: 9 March 2007
Published: 27 September 2007
© 2007 INRA, EDP Sciences

Keywords: mitochondrial DNA, horse, pedigree, phylogeny
Abstract

Polish Arabian horses are one of the oldest and the most important Arab populations in the world. The Polish Arabian Stud Book and the Genealogical Charts by Skorkowski are the main sources of information on the ancestors of Polish Arabs. Both publications were viewed as credible sources of information until the 1990s when the data regarding one of the dam lines was questioned. The aim of the current study was to check the accuracy of the pedigree data of Polish dam lines using mtDNA analysis. The analyses of a 458 bp mtDNA D-loop fragment from representatives of 15 Polish Arabian dam lines revealed 14 distinct haplotypes. The results were inconsistent with pedigree data in the case of two lines. A detailed analysis of the historical sources was performed to explain these discrepancies. Our study revealed that representatives of different lines shared the same haplotypes. We also noted a genetic identity between some lines founded by Polish mares of unknown origin and lines established by desert-bred mares.

Here is the full text:
http://www.gsejourna...86-39-5-609.pdf

#2 curly02

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:34 AM

interesting article and lo and behold Bowling M is also listed as a reference. still without a title darn that know-nothing!!
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#3 sgarabians

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:42 AM

roll on the SE gene pool examination! <weg>
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#4 Demelza

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:45 AM

interesting article and lo and behold Bowling M is also listed as a reference. still without a title darn that know-nothing!!

LOL, it's thanks to a search for 'Bowling M' that I found this. I wonder if the SE mtDNA study that Dr Hudson is funding will be compared with this one? I hope so.

I found it very interesting that my colt who traces in tail female line via his Polish damline to Cherifa (a Shueyman Sabbah), shares the mtDNA of those who trace back in tail female line to Rodania, Wadduda, Urfah and Noura. Some others with unknown breeding share mtDNA with known desert bred Arabians which may vouch for their "Arabianness".

#5 anitae

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:52 AM

The study that the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse is doing with UC Davis will complete the same mtDNA haplotype info for all the remaining asil lines in the US (the ones not previously done in the Bowling et. al. study referred to). The study includes the rest of the SE lines and the other AK lines. The Bowlings' study originally planned to include the rest of the US lines, but the study was interrupted by Ann's demise. There are more than two dozen lines, so I'll surprised if there isn't at least one unusual finding in the group.

Anita

P.S. The original mare from which Rodania, Wadduda, Urfah, and Noura descend must have been a heck of a horse. By the way, the Institute already did the mtDNA on the SE line for Venus, and she came out the same as Rodania, etc. So REALLY a heck of a mare.

#6 phanilah

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:57 AM

I can't wait to see the results from the Institute's project....very interesting stuff. :)

Thanks to everyone involved in making the project go.

Beth
si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes

#7 Demelza

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:00 AM

P.S. The original mare from which Rodania, Wadduda, Urfah, and Noura descend must have been a heck of a horse. By the way, the Institute already did the mtDNA on the SE line for Venus, and she came out the same as Rodania, etc. So REALLY a heck of a mare.

I wonder what percentage of Arabian horses have this mare as their tail female ancestress? Amazing when you think of the extent of her influence.

#8 Teamster

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:47 AM

Oh, no, this cannot be true, don't you know that Polish dam lines are from Thoroughbreds? (tic)
Cheers

Karen

IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TODAY, MAKE IT SOMETHING AWESOME

#9 Demelza

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:55 AM

well Karen, don't speak too soon... there's a follow up article which might state what none of us really want to know - I've just purchased 24 hour access.... :)

"Speculations on the origin of the Arabian horse breed" - Iwona GBa|ewska - Livestock Science: Volume 129, Issue 1, 49-55

Update: have read it, very interesting but nobody can be stuck in a purebred or non-purebred because of it. Goes into the ancestry of the Arabian and the similarity between Arabians and other breeds including Akhal Tekes, Barbs, remains from ancient burials, heavy horses etc, which could mean they had shared ancestors or that the Arabian influenced those breeds or that those breeds influenced the Arabian! It seems likely the original Arabian as bred by the Bedouin was descended from many breeds, with the Bedouin turning them into their own breed(s). Worth a read!

#10 ponygirl

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 04:03 AM

Wow thanks for sharing
SLC Camelot Farms
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#11 Katrin

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:05 AM

well Karen, don't speak too soon... there's a follow up article which might state what none of us really want to know - I've just purchased 24 hour access.... :)


No matter what (donkey??) , I'm fascinated by the genetic identity between Murana I and Gazella. I was searching for Weil ancestors in the pedigrees of todays' Marbach horses during the last days.

Two mares in the Polish pedigrees became important in this search:
Gazella II, because her grandsire Anvil was a Weil-bred stallion
238 Amurath, sired by Amurath Weil

Now this study tells us that Gazella and Murana I were identical and Gazalla's most important representative was Gazella II.
And closely related to Gazella/Murana I we find Milordka via Zaira. Her most important representative is Koalicja - out of 238 Amurath.

Isn't this amazing? Weil and the Polish studs bred a certain type of Arabian. Today we learn that their criteria were consistent.

#12 AlythLong

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:16 AM

As per Thoroughbreds - they are high percentage Arabian....so their ancestors came from the same places as our present day Arabians came from (TBs are descended from Arabian mares as well as stallions).

The pedigrees of our Arabians don't stop with the first Western imports!!! Many of the original imports came from the same, or related tribes, and they weren't the result of immaculate conception!! So it is not surprising that some of the most important and influential mares were descended from one original mare!!! What is amazing is that it has taken this long to prove it.....

Very very interesting....


Alyth

#13 Teamster

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 09:08 AM

Alyth,

I do not know much about other TB families, except for Family 3b, of which my mare descends I do know about. Her foundation mare was called Two True Blues and she was either pure Arabian or very high percentage Arabian. In the very early days of TB breeding, Arabian horses were crossed often, and also half Arabian. So it would not surprise me at all if some of the TB families traced to some of the same Arabian females.

What I find fascinating about Polish Arabians was that the Poles were early in keeping and breeding the mares from Turkoman raids up into Europe and the resultant horses bred on. A little bit of research, even on the internet, will show that it is a really fascinating history. THE ONLY PROBLEM being that the horses were NOT necessarily bred by Bedouins. So they are probably "Asl" but not necessarily Bedouin desert breds. The people who say that Half Arabians, Shagya's and Thoroughbreds were also used, do not really know what they are talking about. They probably have not researched the topic all that well.
Cheers

Karen

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#14 sgarabians

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:04 PM

The study that the Institute for the Desert Arabian Horse is doing with UC Davis will complete the same mtDNA haplotype info for all the remaining asil lines in the US (the ones not previously done in the Bowling et. al. study referred to). The study includes the rest of the SE lines and the other AK lines. The Bowlings' study originally planned to include the rest of the US lines, but the study was interrupted by Ann's demise. There are more than two dozen lines, so I'll surprised if there isn't at least one unusual finding in the group.

Anita

P.S. The original mare from which Rodania, Wadduda, Urfah, and Noura descend must have been a heck of a horse. By the way, the Institute already did the mtDNA on the SE line for Venus, and she came out the same as Rodania, etc. So REALLY a heck of a mare.


And here all along I thought that legend of the breed descending from just 5 mares was a lovely tale...... sometimes truth CAN be stranger than ficton! <smile>
Dave

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#15 hansi

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:18 PM

Alyth,

I do not know much about other TB families, except for Family 3b, of which my mare descends I do know about. Her foundation mare was called Two True Blues and she was either pure Arabian or very high percentage Arabian. In the very early days of TB breeding, Arabian horses were crossed often, and also half Arabian. So it would not surprise me at all if some of the TB families traced to some of the same Arabian females.

What I find fascinating about Polish Arabians was that the Poles were early in keeping and breeding the mares from Turkoman raids up into Europe and the resultant horses bred on. A little bit of research, even on the internet, will show that it is a really fascinating history. THE ONLY PROBLEM being that the horses were NOT necessarily bred by Bedouins. So they are probably "Asl" but not necessarily Bedouin desert breds. The people who say that Half Arabians, Shagya's and Thoroughbreds were also used, do not really know what they are talking about. They probably have not researched the topic all that well.



Hi Teamster

While this is a froum for Asils/SEs, it is sometimes good to also look at other lines.

Descendents from Cherifa (1869) at that time were basically bred in Algier and France, while she came from Syria and assumed "Asil"..

DNA is the answer to various misteries. However, so far we really cant declare mares/stallions like Milordka, Kobyla, Swejkowska, Anielka, Hagar, Gagar, Zumka II, Skowronek etc.etc. (to mention a few) Asil, or?
Kobyla indeed was the priced mare of Poland and her genes, as those of the horses I just stated above, linger through thousands of American /Canadian/European etc.Arabian pedigrees todate. Their types have to be different to each other, because this is what we see today.

Yemen always claimed that the Desert Bred Arabian horse started in their country, while imigration
played a great role- Syria, Saudis etc. One of the great experts on the matter is Basil M Tawfeeq Jadaan,Syria as well as Edouard AlDadah with first hand experiences. Knowing the migration routes- (the bedus took their livestock for grazing where it was good) we all can learn a lot.

Knowing history, Geography, etc one also knows that No TB crossed with Arabians prior to approximately year 1650, because the TB was only created in the last 17th century with the importation of 103 mares/stallions to England, which included the North African Horse "the Barb". The 50 TB families created derived from such imports. I have extended pedigrees of these 50 Tb families and offspring to year 1900.
Indeed a number of TB stallions/mares were used in European/North and South American Arab breeding, one to mentioned is 30 Maria/Mare.

Hansi
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#16 Katrin

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:31 PM

However, so far we really cant declare mares/stallions like Milordka, Kobyla, Swejkowska, Anielka, Hagar, Gagar, Zumka II, Skowronek etc.etc. (to mention a few) Asil, or?


Why not? Gazella was acquired in the desert by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki and imported to Jarczowce in 1845. Today we know that she's identical with Murana I. She must be asil.

The argument was that Arabs didn't sell asil mares to outsiders, but obviously the Polish counts had them imported just like the King of Wuerttemberg. Also it's obvious that these very old European studs exchanged horses. The King of Wuerttemberg was better able to judge the honesty of the Counts than we are today - six foundation horses of Weil were brought by a Polish Count - why do you question the Polish foundation horses and not these six?

If you exclude the Polish horses, the only choice Marbach would have to keep their Murana I heritage asil would be SE. These modern Egyptians already have reduced the ancestry of the original foundation horses. The consequence is that the only asil mare left in Marbach has her Weil ancestors reduced to 6,25 %. She's modern Egypt with a little Weil. Ancestors like Amurath Weil 1881 are not in the pedigrees of Modern Egypt. They are found in Polish and Babolna lines.

I cannot accept that this very old and long European breeding tradition, part of our cultural history, should be taken over by what was left in Egypt a few decades ago. You always point out how important it is to preserve. Anyone can preserve whatever he wants. But don't tell me that it's not worth preserving lines like Amurath Weil 1881 for the sake of a questionable concept of purity.

#17 hansi

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:49 PM

Why not? Gazella was acquired in the desert by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki and imported to Jarczowce in 1845. Today we know that she's identical with Murana I. She must be asil.

The argument was that Arabs didn't sell asil mares to outsiders, but obviously the Polish counts had them imported just like the King of Wuerttemberg. Also it's obvious that these very old European studs exchanged horses. The King of Wuerttemberg was better able to judge the honesty of the Counts than we are today - six foundation horses of Weil were brought by a Polish Count - why do you question the Polish foundation horses and not these six?

If you exclude the Polish horses, the only choice Marbach would have to keep their Murana I heritage asil would be SE. These modern Egyptians already have reduced the ancestry of the original foundation horses. The consequence is that the only asil mare left in Marbach has her Weil ancestors reduced to 6,25 %. She's modern Egypt with a little Weil. Ancestors like Amurath Weil 1881 are not in the pedigrees of Modern Egypt. They are found in Polish and Babolna lines.

I cannot accept that this very old and long European breeding tradition, part of our cultural history, should be taken over by what was left in Egypt a few decades ago. You always point out how important it is to preserve. Anyone can preserve whatever he wants. But don't tell me that it's not worth preserving lines like Amurath Weil 1881 for the sake of a questionable concept of purity.


First of all Miss Katrin, can you please change your tone? I am fully aware of the data of Amurath (weil) (1881), an Asil Arabian Stallion. Have been aware of him for over 50 years.

I believe when stating names of polish horses I stated "Approximately", meaning I could give you many more, which might be inmaterial to others.

If you can come up with any data on at least those I mentioned, it would be a great help for my research data. So far I have "sire and dam,strain, unknown" of the polish Arabians stated.
Take "Kobyla (1790) the historic mare of Slawuta,Poland, we know nothing about her parents, her strain, etc. May be you have more data and are willing to share?

I assure you, every renowned researcher on this earth would be most grateful to ascertain more data, because nobody knows it all, which includes myself.

Hansi
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#18 An American Breeder

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:57 PM

Personally I have HAD IT with all this crap about trying to make certain that there are no strains left in the Arabian breed -- and that is what it comes down to! Good Marketing Ploy and that is where this is headed! Take away all strains, all types, and guess what -- just an Arabian or next not a purebred Arabian.

ALL horses in this world came from 3 or 4 mares and so eventually all horses will trace to these 3 or 4 mares.

If your horses are Kuhalyan or they are Saqlawi why just do away with the other strains and VIOLA you market yours!

And as for the Polish horses, the Poles do not try to hide that there is a certain amount WAY WAY WAY back that is not all pure Arabian! Go examine the pedigrees!!! They have been bred and bred to purebred Arabian and what you would have is an animal that is 1/1000th or something along that line that is not purebred Arabian. WAHO is correct in their definitions to stop all this!!!!

#19 hansi

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 03:02 PM

Personally I have HAD IT with all this crap about trying to make certain that there are no strains left in the Arabian breed -- and that is what it comes down to! Good Marketing Ploy and that is where this is headed! Take away all strains, all types, and guess what -- just an Arabian or next not a purebred Arabian.

ALL horses in this world came from 3 or 4 mares and so eventually all horses will trace to these 3 or 4 mares.

If your horses are Kuhalyan or they are Saqlawi why just do away with the other strains and VIOLA you market yours!

And as for the Polish horses, the Poles do not try to hide that there is a certain amount WAY WAY WAY back that is not all pure Arabian! Go examine the pedigrees!!! They have been bred and bred to purebred Arabian and what you would have is an animal that is 1/1000th or something along that line that is not purebred Arabian. WAHO is correct in their definitions to stop all this!!!!



Dear American Breeder

Even today the Bedus go strongly by 'strains' and when you look through the Syrian or turkish Stud books, you will see some I never heard of. In the syrian studbook it would state"
for a hypo example" Sire" a Saqlawi Shaifi, Dam a Hadbah Enzahi- with NO name of the horse.
"Names" were given, when WAHO asked for their stud book, and that was only a few years ago.
Sometimes it is stated :Saqlawi Jidran of sosoandso, or a Hadbah Enzahiyah of soandso, to identify better.

I spoke to some of the Bedu Sheiks/Elders in Syria, and one stated that his family bred "Hamdani Simris" for more than 300 years. Some elders instantly could recognize a strain, by saying "this is a Saqlawi Jidran" or whatever.

Most imports I recorded do have a "strain" and breeder, such as the Shammars, or Rualas, or
Tais, or Beny Khalids, etc.etc.

If one were to go through the archive in South germany, one could find the Weil imports with detailed information not shown in stud/herd books always. I went there many years ago and found the original entries. So it is wise for anybody who wants to know more to go there and research.
That would be better for some, then debating what is so or not.

When you refer to a 'percentage' please take into account that when percentage is bred to percentage the pacentage remains. For example, if the stallions is 50percent SE and the mare also, the ofspring stays at 50percent SE. Thousands of offspring of the past have been bred together etc, and therefore some Arabians carry as little as 30percent Arab blood. Why, because some 20 generations earlier their pedigree starts out with are other than arabians.

What many of us trying to do is preserve what we feel is "Asil" and are only too happy if we can ad more to the twindeling numbers. Regardless of beeder or owner or what country. Therefore any bona fide information is more than welcome.

It is for me sad to know that only very few countries in this world actually have an Asil Arabian Horse. If one could educate a bit more and have them import a few asil mares and stallions, it might work out well for them. I was very surprised that when visiting Oman, having their stud books, I noticed that they did not have one Asil. Just the same, had excellent breeding stock of Polish/russian/German etc. lines. Even Poland and Russia have nothing left, unless they imported lately of which I dont know. Most countries I have their records off, have top breed with Skowronek/Polish/French etc lines and the offspring are not asil.
But these are by enlarge top stress performance horses and many are very beautiful. Brazil lost hundreds by having 30 Maria/Zarif I in those pedigrees.

We have here in America and in Canada quite a few excellent Asils, and I wish one would concentrate approaching the non-asil owning nations to import and or replenish. I am just too old and tired to undertake this.

Take care
Hansi
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#20 anitae

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 03:06 PM

Just a small technicality: Mares that show the same haplotype are not completely "identical" genetically. It only means they trace to the same female ancestor. In the intervening years, those mares have been bred and incorporated lots of other genes.

In addition to resolving what may be some historical questions, one of the reasons for looking at the haplotypes is to try to figure out how many "original" females were incorporated into a breed. For our Egyptian lines, we have a pretty good idea how many mare lines we still have, and how many we've lost (are found only through the middle of the pedigrees). Once we know how many of the existing lines are really "duplicates" (if I can use that term for when multiple lines show the same haplotype), the genomics experts will have a dandy time taking that info and estimating how many "original" females are represented in the current "breed".

Oh, and my mantra for folks who are concerned about the results that may come out of such a study as we are doing at the Institute: the results will change neither history nor the horses.

The results will allow us to draw some inferences about diversity in the existing herd, and are important data points for further research to establish the amount of diversity we now have.

Anita
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