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#1 Ray

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:19 PM

Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis (DSLD) also known as Equine Systemic Proteoglycan Accumulation (ESPA).

Does anyone have current info on what might be going on with research in this? The thread on Shaikh Al Badi reminded me of the condition, as he was probably affected by it.

A website link explaining the issue: http://dsldequine.info/

#2 Al Zayd NZ

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 12:11 AM

These conditions are certainly to be watched. But I see little benefit using examples of those who "may" exhibit understood symptoms in old age, it is similar to cancer.
I would hardly imagine he had a perfect life which although they had his best interests at heart, to live out an active, physically challenging and mentally engaging existence. A nice warm stall in a hormone charged stallion barn, over fed, under worked and worse, probably the latest and greatest farrier practices and potions and most horses would fail at some level physically or mentally.

Shaikh Al Badi was never my horse, but having a son for 26 years and now another grandson through Anaza Bay Shahh, all this within a breeding program of around 12 foals a year since 1974 (est 1961). Having been actively focussed on endurance the world over and more often than not, I see athletic attributes or physical attraction is often related to these bloodlines, however most are ER.

The endurance ride at the EE is a great initiative and shows an active engaged effort to encourage and support physical ability of the Egyptian bloodlines. It would be great to see breeding/training stables adding a team as part of their planned programs...!

I digress... David
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#3 Ray

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 01:56 AM

Cancer? You may have missed this in the web link I posted:

"DSLD/ESPA is believed to be a genetic disorder so it is advised to take all affected horses out of the breeding pool so the disease does not get passed on."



A strong statement. It's a little late to take the Shaikh out of the breeding pool, but not too late to find a genetic marker for this.

#4 Cheryl L

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 03:16 AM

I had seen Shaikh as an elderly stallion and his legs were just fine. He showed no evidence of DSLD. Very sound.

#5 Al Zayd NZ

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 04:01 AM

I had seen Shaikh as an elderly stallion and his legs were just fine. He showed no evidence of DSLD. Very sound.


This would be as I would assume, but I never saw him as an aged horse. When discussing a condition you should use a confirmed example to help educate rather than speculate. A way of knowing if a condition is or will develop is of value for sure.
Thank you for your comment.
regards, David.
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(Home of Imperial Maakir, Simeon Sapar and Chaswyk Al Zayd.)

#6 Demelza

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 04:17 AM

I think Ray may be referring to some old photos of Shaikh, where he was pictured as an aged horse clearly showing post legged and coon footed conformation. This has lead some to suspect he may have had DSLD... however, if we read this article by Deb Bennett, http://www.horseshoe...sldcarriers.htm we can see that not all horses with these hind limb conformation have DSLD.

"For these reasons, I do not think that horses should be eliminated from breeding merely on the grounds that they are post-legged or coonfooted. The conformation, by itself, is not enough to show whether or not a horse is a DSLD carrier. For example, generations of post-legged and coon-footed Thoroughbreds have raced without reports of DSLD."


If we then read Ray's link again, we can see that quite a complex diagnostic process has to be taken out before DSLD can be confirmed. IMO we can not assume Shaikh had DSLD based on the photos showing post legged and coon footed conformation.

"Diagnosis
FLEX TEST & ULTRASOUND

Flex test of fetlock joints, ultrasound of suspensories. Dsld horses will fail the flex test in two or more legs.
Palpation of suspensories will find them to be very hard & taunt, maybe lumpy from calcification or could be mushy. Pain response is also noted. Enlarged suspensories and the branches will be evident in cases that have progressed.
Print the Diagnostic Protocol & Exam Form by Dr. Mero and give to your vet to read before examination. Found on DSLD/ESPA home page.

IRON BLOOD TESTING-

*Having blood drawn on your horse and testing for iron & ferritin will show where you dsld horse tests for overload on iron. Many dsld horses are showing high iron levels and some low in magnesium. Send blood sample to University of Kansas as they are testing for ferritin levels and Dr Kellon is doing a study on ferritin levels in dsld and non dsld horses. Information and forms found on Vet pages linked on home page.

TISSUE DIAGNOSIS

There is now tissue diagnosis available at necropsy. Tissues to be sent to Dr Halper of U of GA. Information and details on the Vet Pages linked at bottom of Home page. ***NEW~ We are also doing some trial nuchal ligament biopsies on live horses with Dr Halper doing the tissue analysis. So far several cases have been tested on a live horse. Even if symptoms are not showing outwardly, or very suble signs, and horse is out of known DSLD/ESPA parents or has affected siblings, it may show affects internally in the nuchal ligament. For more information please join the DSLD-equine list, link on home page."



#7 Al Zayd NZ

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 07:15 AM

I think Ray may be referring to some old photos of Shaikh, where he was pictured as an aged horse clearly showing post legged and coon footed conformation. This has lead some to suspect he may have had DSLD... however, if we read this article by Deb Bennett, http://www.horseshoe...sldcarriers.htm we can see that not all horses with these hind limb conformation have DSLD.



If we then read Ray's link again, we can see that quite a complex diagnostic process has to be taken out before DSLD can be confirmed. IMO we can not assume Shaikh had DSLD based on the photos showing post legged and coon footed conformation.


...and you wonder why people ask that you leave your camera in their car... photo's can be damaging as they can be flattering. Point made in triplicate.

regards David
David Marshall and Sandie MacLean
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(Home of Imperial Maakir, Simeon Sapar and Chaswyk Al Zayd.)

#8 Cheryl L

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 09:12 AM

I agree that Shaikh was post legged. Just needed a bit more angulation above the hock. Other than that, he had nice legs and good, good feet. He was not coon footed. He was in his 20's when I had seen him last. I also have been in the stall with him.
Glorious old man, gentle, with huge soft eyes. He loved to have his chest scratched and would heave a huge sigh of content

#9 Demelza

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:08 AM

found the pic
http://www.straighte...n...ost&p=51160 quote Sheri Mose: "Here is a pic of Shaikh Al Badi at 20 at Bittersweet just before he foundered and before he went to his last horrendous home... "

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#10 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 05:46 AM

And here is another photo of SAB again in aged condition....sorry I don't know who took the photo and only show it here in the name of learning.....thanks for the interesting link Demelza

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#11 Al Zayd NZ

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:07 AM

excruciatingly sad... ! I don't see the point. No confirmed answers, just obvious poor management. Doesn't a horse who has contributed so much around the world deserve better. What of the horses dignity.? Please respect Shaikh Al Badi and stop perpetuating assumptions.
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#12 Demelza

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:25 AM

There are no assumptions being perpetuated from my end David - he was what he was in that photo at 20, and as I've already said, the only way for any horse to be diagnosed with DSLD is through a thorough vet exam, therefore no assumptions can be made. Furthermore, as Dr Bennett said, plenty of horses have raced and remained sound with the same hind limb conformation as Shaikh - they did not have DSLD.
As the quote above the photo says, it was taken just before the poor horse foundered. There are plenty of positives to be seen in that photo and the one Trish posted - his beautiful substance of bone and strong back and loin for instance... I can see this coming through in many of his descendants.
Having two Shaikh Al Badi descendants myself I certainly admire the horse and appreciate his influence, but I'm also not afraid to look at him critically... certainly makes me realise how important it is to keep Khalee in good shape considering she has already foundered twice and has a slightly posty hind limb conformation. Being aware of such things helps me make better decisions.

#13 Al Zayd NZ

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:49 AM

There are no assumptions being perpetuated from my end David - he was what he was in that photo at 20, and as I've already said, the only way for any horse to be diagnosed with DSLD is through a thorough vet exam, therefore no assumptions can be made. Furthermore, as Dr Bennett said, plenty of horses have raced and remained sound with the same hind limb conformation as Shaikh - they did not have DSLD.
As the quote above the photo says, it was taken just before the poor horse foundered. There are plenty of positives to be seen in that photo and the one Trish posted - his beautiful substance of bone and strong back and loin for instance... I can see this coming through in many of his descendants.
Having two Shaikh Al Badi descendants myself I certainly admire the horse and appreciate his influence, but I'm also not afraid to look at him critically... certainly makes me realise how important it is to keep Khalee in good shape considering she has already foundered twice and has a slightly posty hind limb conformation. Being aware of such things helps me make better decisions.


First of all, this link is to discuss DSLD. So using a picture of known horses who has not been diagnosed perpetuates an assumption. Founder is more often bad management and yes a horse (regardless of bloodline) requires even stronger management after founder. full stop...!

Being critical of a horse after founder, or some sort of misadventure is not the same as evaluating a horse in health as a breeding/show horse. Especially from a photo.

If you are interpreting Dr Bennett as suggesting that the same hind limb confirmation as Shaikh was in his prime, racing and remaining sound, of course but as he was at aged 20 then I would doubt it.
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(Home of Imperial Maakir, Simeon Sapar and Chaswyk Al Zayd.)

#14 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 09:11 AM

David I think you have missed the most important point to posting these photos in the first place and that is as Demelza has already stated DSLD has to be diagnosed through a thorough vet exam... & that is the only way you would know for sure.

But on a side note it has been asked before in discussions on R Ali just where his straighter hocks may have come from, some have pointed the finger at Kofo where as I have a different opinion when looking at SAB photo's....he was a great horse who seemed to offer far more on a positive note in the breeding shed for many to out way his hock problems...JMO :)

So on a finishing note no one here is assuming any thing because as we all know if you were to break the word down it could end up making an... (No bad words on the forum)..out of ..u..and..me..=assume :th_hehe:

#15 Demelza

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 06:47 PM

...actually I thought that the photo backed up the suggestion there may have been OTHER causes of his obvious pain, than DSLD! The horse is fat, and it looks like lumpy fat which is suggestive of diabetes... he could have been suffering mild but chronic laminitis for some time and using my imagination, I can visualise a horse who stands so as to get weight off his toes would put excess pressure on his limbs - locking up his hock/stifle area to help relieve the pain, something has to give... in this case his pasterns... yes an ASSumption! LOL.

Either way, I have faith in the intelligence of the membership of the forum in that they will think for themselves and make up their own minds based on what they see and read. I'm pretty sure nobody is going to give up their Ali Jamaals or Marwans based on this. :grouphug:

#16 Ray

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 06:47 PM

That first photo that Demelza posted is the one I have. I did not post it here for a reason. Reason being, I'm not certain the horse pictured is SAB. Sherri Mose had another stallion, Glorietta something-or-other and this could be that horse. Unfortunately, the SAB face markings and his white right front and white left rear are not visible in the photo.

David - the point people were trying to make, way back when this photo and SAB were being discussed was this: be careful adding SAB to a pedigree. Good, bad or indifferent.

Have you read about this disease? The conformation of the horse in that photo is classic DSLD.

#17 Cheryl L

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:07 PM

This is a disease that causes severe lameness. I was on the other side of Shaikh in the photo that Trish posted. He was not lame. In fact, he was quite spry for an aged stallion.

#18 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:38 PM

This is a disease that causes severe lameness. I was on the other side of Shaikh in the photo that Trish posted. He was not lame. In fact, he was quite spry for an aged stallion.


Thanks Cheryl for being an eye witness on that day....so pleased to hear that SAB was not in any pain that day but I guess we also can't rule out him being medicated for pain either....either way he looks happy and they seem to be managing him well when that photo was taken.

David I do hope you read that article that Demelza put a link to for as Ray pointed out there was some good stuff in it. :th_thparty0036:

#19 Ray

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:44 PM

This is a disease that causes severe lameness. I was on the other side of Shaikh in the photo that Trish posted. He was not lame. In fact, he was quite spry for an aged stallion.


Well then Houston, we have a problem. Either you don't know what you're talking about, or the horse in that first photo is not SAB, because the suspensory ligament is shot in that horse in the first photo!

#20 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 12:35 AM

Ray I'm not sure what age SAB was in both the photos....in the first photo he may be older and like I said regarding the second photo he may well have been medicated , I'm just guessing here but that could explain why he did not present lame that day or he may well have been sound at that time in his life. Unless we have word from those who were managing him during the time these photos were taking then my friend were back to ..assuming..JMO :PerspectMA19366318-0001:




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