130 replies to this topic

[DianeT]

DJ Sheldon, on 07 November 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Hmmm.  That does sound like it's out of the scope of their authority. If this is in fact true, then I would be looking at who at WAHO is objecting to reporting, and then I would steer clear of any horse of their breeding. I'm not sure I agree with mandatory testing, only because I think people should be aware of what diseases are out there, and if it is a concern, they should require testing of any horses they are considering buying or breeding to.  I don't like the idea of any governing body trying to legislate common sense.  However, I also don't like the idea of breeders knowingly selling horses or breeding stallions without disclosure when they know or suspect said horse is a carrier of some genetic flaw.  I just don't know how you can legislate honesty and integrity.

Thank you, you have reinforced my thoughts.  I also agree with being suspicious of those objecting to the reporting.  

[Demelza]

How does one find out whether this is true or a rumour?

I may be cynical, but if true, I'd be asking "who" within WAHO is kicking up a fuss about this. From what I understand, WAHO has no right whatsoever to step in to the compulsory testing debate UNLESS a particular registry is trying to deny registration of CA/SCID/LFS Carrier horses. I don't know of any registry that is trying to do that.

WAHO constitution: http://www.waho.org/Constitution.html

WAHO executive committee: http://www.waho.org/executive.html

[hansi]

Demelza, on 08 November 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

How does one find out whether this is true or a rumour?

I may be cynical, but if true, I'd be asking "who" within WAHO is kicking up a fuss about this. From what I understand, WAHO has no right whatsoever to step in to the compulsory testing debate UNLESS a particular registry is trying to deny registration of CA/SCID/LFS Carrier horses. I don't know of any registry that is trying to do that.

WAHO constitution: http://www.waho.org/Constitution.html

WAHO executive committee: http://www.waho.org/executive.html

Demelza, it is absolutely true. I found this out a few days ago that such letter of recommendation was sent already in October to all Registries/Member of WAHO. To say the least I WAS SHOCKED OUT OF MY BOOTS, but NOT surprised.

Indeed WAHO has no right to tell any registry what to do, other than what is in connection with studbooks/registrations, THE ONLY
funtion and power it has.

It started already in Germany at a registry meeting when Dr Nagel suggested that the test made by labs are unreliable. While this is correct for some in Europe it is said, he should have stated that this does not apply to our labs here, such as Cornell, Davis and Vetgen. I considered this already an insult towards the USA and Canada LaBS.

I was read over the phone the letter sent to the registries by two reliable parties and am truly amazed over such audacity, such misuse of POWER. I have not seen as of this date disclosure of his horses, nor that of Ansata or Mrs Tauschke, close friend of Mr BESTE, and former employee of Dr Nagel, while it has been found that numerous ones test positive for at least CA of the latter two breeders.

It appears that a strong personal motive is involved, trying to have all registries FIRST VOTE ON THE SUBJECT at the next WAHO meeting a year from now, to posssibly conduct more lucrative business " before "disclosure" takes place. that means that at least two breeding seasons come about, during which foals will be sired and/or born DOOMED TO DIE!

When we started testing for CA all our horses Oct/Nov.2009, we had the test number 603 and up. Todate it is over "5500", gaining over 5000 tested horses in one year. Many of our smaller breeder ate pork and beans to pay for the test costs, which are lower than in other countries. Does WAHO think about them and their beloved horses? Or are they just there to pay their dues?

We simply can NOT PERMIT to have WAHO GAIN SUCH POWER, telling or recommending regisries how to carry out their business afairs. that must stay each registrie's own decisions. Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and in part Australia have made the tests mandatory and have been saluted for it. Why now should they have to vote to do so, when already done by the choice and vote of their members?
The letter sent to all by WAHO is a tErrible mistake and creates the thought of DISTRUST, POWER CRAZE AND IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR of WAHO IN MY OPINION, and makes me very sad.

As many of you know I am a lifetime member of wAHO since 1971/1972 and fought for them all the way because they always did the right thing for many things. But I have never noticed such outragous behavior as issued by WAHO now.

It is of course very desirable if also our AHA will make it mandatory.

I am truly sorry to post the above, but the truth must be stated,people warned, for the sake of the "HORSES" ALL OF THEM.

Take care
Hansi

PS I wish this subject WAHO be under its own title, and may be Heidi can change it over? It is too important to dance under another one. May be someone can think of an adequte title ?

[diane]

Demelza, on 08 November 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

How does one find out whether this is true or a rumour?

Ask the source   waho at btconnect dot com  ... perhaps if they receive enough enquiries they might put up a news item?

[Demelza]

hansi, on 08 November 2010 - 02:05 AM, said:

We simply can NOT PERMIT to have WAHO GAIN SUCH POWER, telling or recommending regisries how to carry out their business afairs. that must stay each registrie's own decisions. Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and in part Australia have made the tests mandatory and have been saluted for it. Why now should they have to vote to do so, when already done by the choice and vote of their members?

I'm with you on this one Hansi!

[Demelza]

diane, on 08 November 2010 - 03:27 AM, said:

Ask the source   waho at btconnect dot com  ... perhaps if they receive enough enquiries they might put up a news item?

already done! ;0)

[hansi]

diane, on 08 November 2010 - 03:27 AM, said:

Ask the source   waho at btconnect dot com  ... perhaps if they receive enough enquiries they might put up a news item?

Diane, what news item? Does anybody realize how serious this
matter is? I am truly worried for all of us.

Hansi

[diane]

Hi Hansi,
WAHO has a "WAHO News" page on their http://www.waho.org/...ews.html.  WAHO should update their News page for this type of topic.  It would eliminate the gossip, innuendo, speculation etc.

[hansi]

diane, on 09 November 2010 - 05:46 AM, said:

Hi Hansi,
WAHO has a "WAHO News" page on their http://www.waho.org/...ews.html.  WAHO should update their News page for this type of topic.  It would eliminate the gossip, innuendo, speculation etc.

Good morning all

Yes, that should be done

I am now in possession of a copy of that letter, dated Sept.23/2010
addressed to all member registries. It is very difficult to read and analyze. However, on page two , paragrapf three
it reads"

"That WAHO ensures that Registries Authority Members do not make testing for SCID, CA or LFS mandatory.

That WAHO ensures that a horse's tested status is not placed on registration certificates, in passports, or in studbooks whether printed or on line."

and on and on.

I feel it violates the constitutional rules which state
" to advise and co-ordinate the policies and activities of Members of the Organization, PROVIDED ALWAYS THAT THE ORGANIZATION SHALL HAVE NO POWER OR JURISDICTION OVER THE INTERNAL POLICIES AND DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES OF ITS MEMBERS OR ANY OF THEM.

My deep concern is, that foals can be sired or born doomed to die,
while both parents are carriers. That newcomer buyers or others are being sold carriers without disclosure. I also find it strange that all has to wait until voting takes place a year from now, while already countries such as Holland, Belgium,Germany and Switzerland made it mandatory with Australia in particular cases, such as imports, etc.
I think (aussies correct me if I am wrong please)

Over 5500 horses have been tested here for CA already, an increase of about 5000 in one year, which is remarkable and shows me that indeed thousands of our people care. Should their efforts and sacrifices have gone in vain?

WAHO so far has always been there for its member, fair and straight forward and I have been a loyal member since about 1971/1972 and will remain as such, obeying all rules and promoting to have more people join. Often, when leadeship changes, changes come about, not always in the interest of all members. In this case, a serious matter, WAHO should have put this forward to all members,
not just the registry members. We all could have then stated our objection or whatever.

Please friends remember, we are not talking here about books on a shelf, but the life or death of innocent foals! Indeed WAHO states that one can voluntarily test, but the scare has been put into people with the letter, people could be thinking that the tests are useless.

the above is my opinion.

Hansi

[abbasiyah]

Well Hansi... I have to say I'm shocked that WAHO would try to prevent testing for genetic disease.  WHY?  What possible motive would WAHO have to try to stop registries from making it mandatory?  Perhaps some registries do not want to have additional costs added to the cost of registering a foal but to try to stop what has already been decided upon by some registries is very strange to say the least, AND to not have it printed on the papers....????  WHY NOT?

IMHO if you are a true breeder with the well being of the Arabian breed at heart then you would test your stock and make informed decisions about whom to breed to whom.  I have a hard time wrapping my mind around any breeder not wanting to disclose or to know if horses in their breeding programme have these genetic diseases that can be passed on and that can in fact kill the foal!  Who in their right mind would want to continue to produce CA affected foals??  Who would want SCID or LFS???  What possible motive could there be to try to sell these horses without disclosure?  Don't they know that the unsuspecting buyers will eventually find out?  Strange to say the least.

Judi

[Demelza]

Members of Belgium, Holland, Switzerland and Germany voted for mandatory testing (and in the case of Germany, voted overwhelmingly even though WAHO president Dr Hans Nagel tried to prevent it), yet WAHO thinks it has the right to go against democracy within those individual countries and registries. I think this is sad. More than sad actually, it is an insult.

Whether my country decides to be for or against mandatory testing, I want it to be OUR member's decision, not WAHO's.

Maybe it is time to look at genetic testing as an animal welfare issue. What would we do if SAFE or PETA knew we as Arabian breeders were deliberately ignoring tools (genetic tests) to prevent the suffering/death of our Arabians? Would they accept the (easily prevented) deaths of mares to complicated LFS foalings or the slow downhill slide of the CA or SCID affected foals any more than they would accept us starving or beating our animals? Does WAHO really want to be seen as anti-animal welfare?

[firepanther]

What purpose is there NOT to test? If tests are not done and not disclosed to people buying or breeding, there will be a lot of potentially dead foals born or foals that will have to be PTS shortly after birth. It makes no sense to me....If anything, IMO, genetic test results SHOULD be disclosed on their papers and with the registry. What reason, if you really care about the horses, is there to hide that informaton??

[ivahri]

Let's not divert this discussion on to the pros & cons of testing- that is not the issue. The issue is solely to do with a Registry, owned & managed by its members FOR ITS MEMBERS, can be manipulated by an external body. That is a very serious issue. We all respect WAHO's interest in the Arabian Definition but whether I want to have my horse' test statuses on their registration is a matter between me & my registry. Be careful WAHO... this is the kind of stupidity that could make the AHA dispute look tame. The members of the AHSA elect a Board, and the Board makes decisions on our behalf- none of us gave WAHO any right to interfere in the day to day policy making of the AHSA. I'm sure other countries will feel the same way.

Cheers,

Richard Cerveny
Ivahri Arabians
Sydney Australia

[hansi]

Demelza, on 09 November 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:

Members of Belgium, Holland, Switzerland and Germany voted for mandatory testing (and in the case of Germany, voted overwhelmingly even though WAHO president Dr Hans Nagel tried to prevent it), yet WAHO thinks it has the right to go against democracy within those individual countries and registries. I think this is sad. More than sad actually, it is an insult.

Whether my country decides to be for or against mandatory testing, I want it to be OUR member's decision, not WAHO's.

Maybe it is time to look at genetic testing as an animal welfare issue. What would we do if SAFE or PETA knew we as Arabian breeders were deliberately ignoring tools (genetic tests) to prevent the suffering/death of our Arabians? Would they accept the (easily prevented) deaths of mares to complicated LFS foalings or the slow downhill slide of the CA or SCID affected foals any more than they would accept us starving or beating our animals? Does WAHO really want to be seen as anti-animal welfare?

Demelza and all

you all are so right. Personally, and in my opinion I think that
the couple of people responsible for this decision (WAHO) and work together closely businesswise, do have CA carriers, which they do NOT want to disclose but without their permission can not disclose this here. I do have information as to which of their stallions are involved(these are prominent stallions). One actually told their client TO NOT MENTION it, but will no longer stand the stallion/stallions to outside mares. While millions of dollas worth of sales are involved,including past and presence, I guess to them to not disclose is important.

All this is so sad and we all sacrifice so much fo the preservation of the Arab horse, love these arabs so much and know how it feels
losing one. I will never understand how anybody, claiming they love these horses, could STOOP THAT LOW!!!!And if this involves our "leaders" than may be we select others to serve all of us.Worse yet, TRUST IS BROKEN!. All the former great WAHO Presidents will turn in their graves.

All Have a Grand Day
Hansi

[lorry]

hansi, on 10 November 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

Demelza and all

you all are so right. Personally, and in my opinion I think that
the couple of people responsible for this decision (WAHO) and work together closely businesswise, do have CA carriers, which they do NOT want to disclose but without their permission can not disclose this here. I do have information as to which of their stallions are involved(these are prominent stallions). One actually told their client TO NOT MENTION it, but will no longer stand the stallion/stallions to outside mares. While millions of dollas worth of sales are involved,including past and presence, I guess to them to not disclose is important.

All this is so sad and we all sacrifice so much fo the preservation of the Arab horse, love these arabs so much and know how it feels
losing one. I will never understand how anybody, claiming they love these horses, could STOOP THAT LOW!!!!And if this involves our "leaders" than may be we select others to serve all of us.Worse yet, TRUST IS BROKEN!. All the former great WAHO Presidents will turn in their graves.  All Have a Grand Day   Hansi  

This move is shocking to me.  I have attended many WAHO Conferences, several as a guest and several as a delegate for the USA since the early 1980's. As a delegate I attended the Registrar's meetings where the real work is done and was always so very impressed with the dedication of these people to work out the problems of our Arabians in the areas of registration consistency (one Registry accepting the registration of another Registry without question as long as both are registered in a WAHO-member Registry). The other area of concern is with the different laws between countries with once in a while one country's laws being in conflict with another country's and how to work out those problems within the rules of WAHO, but always in reference to the area of registration, brands, etc.

I have never gotten the impression that WAHO was involved in anything except the area of the registration of our Purebred Arabians around the world which relates to the travel between countries of these horses. I don't believe that the WAHO Constitution allows WAHO to dictate policy or rules of their Registry members in any way!  

I am so glad to see you all have the same concerns as do I.  

It was Jay Stream who brought all the world together to make WAHO such a great success.  I was privileged to work with Jay starting in the early 1980's on other endeavors and with WAHO starting in 1997.  I really miss him.  For those that are not aware, Jay died in January of 2006.

[Al Tair]

From the website www.araber-weltweit.de of the journal "Araber Weltweit" which is a mandatory subcription for all members of the German Organisation VZAP, date Nov. 10 / 2010 (who can translate this into English?):

Hannover. (SB) Der Zuchtverband VZAP weißt Besitzer neu einzutragender Vollblutaraberstuten darauf hin, dass nur mit vorliegendem VA-Testergebnis die Zuchtbucheintragung abgeschlossen werden kann.



Wie der Zuchtverband VZAP mitteilt, liegt bei nicht einmal einem Fünftel der 2010 gemusterten und neu einzutragenden Vollblutaraberstute ein CA-Testergebnis vor. Dieser Nachweis ist allerdings unbedingt notwendig, um die Eintragung in der Zuchtbuch abzuschließen.

„Wir bitten alle betroffenen Stutenbesitzer, schnellstens den Test zu veranlassen und uns die Kopie des Ergebnisses zukommen zu lassen“, sagt Angela Kambach, VZAP Geschäftsstelle. „Erst dann kann die Zuchtbucheintragung der Stute abschließend bearbeitet werden und eventuelle Fohlenpapiere ausgestellt werden.“


Informationen zum CA-Test für Besitzer von im VZAP eingetragenen bzw. neu einzutragenen Zuchtpferden (AV) finden Sie hier (PDF-Format)...


Best regards
Sabrina

[Trish aka JMO]

Well I gave it go & this is what I came up with for those who might want a English version....


Hannover. (SB) The breeding Association VZAP alert owner of newly einzutragender thoroughbred Arabian mares that only with this VA test result the breed registry entry can be completed.



As the breeding Association VZAP indicating a CA test result is before even one in five of the 2010 patterned and new connection thoroughbred Arabian mare. This evidence is, however, essential to complete the entry in the Studbook.

"We ask all affected Mare owners, as soon as possible to take the test and the copy of the result to us", says Angela Kambach, VZAP Office. "Only can finally edited the breed registry entry of the Mare and issued any foal papers."


For information about CA tested for owners of registered in the VZAP or newly einzutragenen breeding horses (AV), click here (PDF format

[hansi]

Al Tair, on 10 November 2010 - 10:12 PM, said:

From the website www.araber-weltweit.de of the journal "Araber Weltweit" which is a mandatory subcription for all members of the German Organisation VZAP, date Nov. 10 / 2010 (who can translate this into English?):

Hannover. (SB) Der Zuchtverband VZAP weißt Besitzer neu einzutragender Vollblutaraberstuten darauf hin, dass nur mit vorliegendem VA-Testergebnis die Zuchtbucheintragung abgeschlossen werden kann.



Wie der Zuchtverband VZAP mitteilt, liegt bei nicht einmal einem Fünftel der 2010 gemusterten und neu einzutragenden Vollblutaraberstute ein CA-Testergebnis vor. Dieser Nachweis ist allerdings unbedingt notwendig, um die Eintragung in der Zuchtbuch abzuschließen.

„Wir bitten alle betroffenen Stutenbesitzer, schnellstens den Test zu veranlassen und uns die Kopie des Ergebnisses zukommen zu lassen“, sagt Angela Kambach, VZAP Geschäftsstelle. „Erst dann kann die Zuchtbucheintragung der Stute abschließend bearbeitet werden und eventuelle Fohlenpapiere ausgestellt werden.“


Informationen zum CA-Test für Besitzer von im VZAP eingetragenen bzw. neu einzutragenen Zuchtpferden (AV) finden Sie hier (PDF-Format)...


Best regards
Sabrina

thanks Sabrina, I will try
This is quoted by you from the website"Araber-weltweit" etc.

Hannover (SB)."VZAP (that's the German registry) advises the German
breeders , that only horses who's owners present a copy of the VA (CA)
Test will be registered.

The registry advises that only one fifth of the horses have been tested so far. Without copy of test result, no horse can be entered into the stud book.

We ask all mare owners to quickly run a test, sending us a copy of same, - said Angela Kambach of the VZAP registry- Only then can we work with the stud book entry and eventual foal entry as well.

You will find information of CA testing of breeding stock on the AV website."

I guess that says it loud and clear.

Hansi

[anitae]

As I understand, then, the German registry requirements are as explained several months ago:  the horse must be tested and the results will be entered into the stud records.  However, this does not mean that a horse with a carrier status would be denied registration.

This raises, for me, the issue of how a registry (any registry) will determine which testing facilities are "acceptable" for the required results. I am greatly in favor of testing, but I wonder if a registry owes its members some confirmation that a particular test/testing facility will provide reliable results. For LFS, one would think the Cornell lab is reliable, because they have published their research and procedure in a peer-reviewed journal. AND, the test is a direct-gene test. No other testing lab has demonstrated that they are doing the same test (as far as I know).

For CA, I understand that UC Davis researchers have submitted (but I think it is not yet published) what they are testing and how they are testing for CA. No other lab has done so.

I hope people who are testing from other labs will comment on what information they have about the reliability of the labs they are using. I know there is a lab in RSA that announced the LFS test before Cornell, but as far as I know, they have not published any research paper about what they are actually testing. Would someone point me at a URL from that lab, please?  Thanks.

Anita

[hansi]

anitae, on 11 November 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

As I understand, then, the German registry requirements are as explained several months ago:  the horse must be tested and the results will be entered into the stud records.  However, this does not mean that a horse with a carrier status would be denied registration.

This raises, for me, the issue of how a registry (any registry) will determine which testing facilities are "acceptable" for the required results. I am greatly in favor of testing, but I wonder if a registry owes its members some confirmation that a particular test/testing facility will provide reliable results. For LFS, one would think the Cornell lab is reliable, because they have published their research and procedure in a peer-reviewed journal. AND, the test is a direct-gene test. No other testing lab has demonstrated that they are doing the same test (as far as I know).

For CA, I understand that UC Davis researchers have submitted (but I think it is not yet published) what they are testing and how they are testing for CA. No other lab has done so.

I hope people who are testing from other labs will comment on what information they have about the reliability of the labs they are using. I know there is a lab in RSA that announced the LFS test before Cornell, but as far as I know, they have not published any research paper about what they are actually testing. Would someone point me at a URL from that lab, please?  Thanks.

Anita

Yes anita, you make sense as usual. However, it is up to each registry what to accept or not. I strongly believe in Davis,Cornel VetGen's
testing and asked my client abroad to utilize such facilities.
It is also cheaper, it appears and the service is excellent.

Each registry is responsible for their members, must do what they want and vote on and can only relay this, representing the members.

Under these circumstances WAHO has no right, no power to intervene, interfere in any registries business and has only the right and power when it comes to their studbook/horse entries.

I am a very strong supporter of WAHO, always will be, but will NOT stand
for any ABUSE of power.

take care
Hansi