43 replies to this topic

[Heidi]

I don't believe I've ever been on a single farm that raises straight egyptians that hasn't had a mare reject it's foal.My understanding is that se mares have the highest rate of foal rejection of any breed statistically. So what has worked, drugs,name them. Forcing the mare? Before I breed 3 maidens this year I want to hear from others, I'm thinking that 3 in one year might be a bit much.I've never had a problem so far with my mares(knock on wood) But I've sure helped others that have.

[An American Breeder]

Of Straight Egyptian mares I have of my own or that I have helped with:

Tiara -- loved her foal on sight!

Arra Fareeda -- loved her foal on sight as well; Tiara's SE daughter

Bentwood mare -- wanted her baby, blind, windswept very much and only tolerated me helping until the baby got the hang of it, then told me emphatically to beat it -- that is until the foal was about 2 months old and then she rejected her filly.

Tajirah -- wanted the baby very much, but hurt and wasn't about to let the foal nurse -- drugs, ACE and a good lip chain changed her mind.

Arrastarlet (about 90% SE) loved her baby so much she wouldn't let her away from the front of her -- right under nose -- had to milk the mare and hold the bottle between her hind legs until her filly figured out for herself.

A SE mare I helped with wasn't too wild about the foal, and then decided she did want her (the mare tore foaling) but had to held, milked the first few hours, and then drugs used -- suspect ACE by the vet but maybe not -- anyway I went every 1 1/2 to 2 hours and held her until midnight of the second day and she gave in -- claimed the filly strongly after that.

I believe many of these SE mares have not been raised in a more or less natural setting -- they have not seen other mares foal, with those mares immediately claiming their foals and allowing them to nurse -- and too many people have this "bonding" carried to extremes when the mare was a tiny baby -- so they lose that bonding with their own mother.  I know my mares watch -- and watch closely.

[Heidi]

In my years near the Tubel farm only one mare was a foal rejector, she had 2 that died, one she was drugged and forced to take and the next she rejected and it died. Mostly these mares lived out 24/7 and foaled out very much survival of the fittest.

[vclink]

Heidi, here is one of the best articles I have found on the subject:

http://www.usask.ca/...foalreject.html

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[Heidi]

I wonder in mares if it's like in people that they get  postpartum depression, My 10 year old sons mother wanted nothing to do with him after he was born and gave him to me when he was 6 days old. She never showed any interest in any feeding or care of him. I've seen mares that have no maternal instincts at all

[Suellen Taylor]

Heidi, Of the 30+ foals I have had and/or foaled out..I have one rejector..and she herself was rejected from her dam, who I found out later was also a rejected foal.
Arrgh, not known at purchase.

Even Elegant Dahncer, who had mastitis first foal and lost one side completely, has foaled and nursed 7 other foals..one teat!

I truly believe the rejectors are rejects themselves..and it saddens me, as it is so costly and time consuming...and I often wonder why...Liz may have struck a note!

With Bahila's first foal, Nadeerah, the Dakharo filly, I did the walking back and forth from foals stall with her, and held her daily, for almost a month, until Nadeerah took the bucket. Then Bahila went outside with the herd, yet that horse would come to the stall window and actually hang over it with the filly, bottom door closed her off.  Yet when together, Bahila would kick at the filly, and no way was I allowing that. For the first week, I used a cocktail of Ace, estrogen and domperidrone twice a day..she just is NOT a mother.

Hali Inasa, Georgia's first filly 2002 had her first foal in 2008..Halima Inasa, and Hali was the best mother of them all, within 20 minutes the foal was up, and Hali was raising her leg for her to nurse..never saw anything like it..and documented it on film..could not beleive my eyes...remarkable!

I do not think it has a whole lot to do with them being maidens..if they were nursed and nurtured, they will pretty much do the same..at least that is my experience.

Mark Me Elegant, Elegant's first filly in 2000 had her first foal at four, a very adventurous colt, and I held her lead rope for a few hours, until she got the hang of it as well as the colt..took maybe about 6 hours of sitting in the stall..a very cold night as I recall..we were all bundled up in blankets.  I say this because Mark Me was the first foal on only one teat nursing from Elegant..worked just fine.

Gee, I envy you the foals..I just cannot even consider it for a while..still have the 2008 mares to sell or find homes for..and BOTH of them will be outstanding first time mothers!!!!  It is in their genes!

[PAS]

All of my foundation mares were very good mothers. Of their daughters, I had two reject foals. Both daughters were from one of the foundation mare lines. The first was a maiden mare.

The foal was born during the day without signs that she was about to foal. The foal was found chasing after the very  frightened mare when found. The first day the mare let her nurse but shook like a leaf. The second day she would kick at the foal, the third day she grabbed her handler by the neck and tossed the 200 pound man over her shoulder. the baby was raised by a maiden nurse mare with no milk. She drank from a bucket and suckled the mare for comfort.

This mare was given a second chance but with a shot of Fluphenizine. She not only love her baby but refused to wean it, that filly stayed with her mother until she was 9 months old. this mare never had another problem raising her foals.

The other mare's first for died when he was 3 days old. Her second foal, a filly was put down due to a cleft pallet at 3 days old. When her 3rd foal was born she was an extraordinarily mother until the foal was 3 days old and wanted to know what the Heck he was still doing there. She refused to let him nurse and he was dead at 4 days of age.  Her 5th foal was a fluphenizine baby. Good mother and no trouble since.

Of the 400 or so mares I have foaled out in over 30 years, these are the ONLY mares who rejected.

[Suellen Taylor]

We were posting at same time..so I will say this about your comment above...I do think there are some mares who take longer for those hormones to kick in, so to speak, hopefully they do kick in. Talked to a lot of breeders back when, and got some real horror stories.

I feel I have been very lucky in my years of foaling. I did lose my first foal two years ago to pneumonia caused by aspiration..bottle feeding, I believe..and I sincerely hope that never happens again..devastating!  I blame myself for not trying the bucket sooner.

[vclink]

Heidi, on 26 March 2011 - 06:00 PM, said:

I wonder in mares if it's like in people that they get  postpartum depression, My 10 year old sons mother wanted nothing to do with him after he was born and gave him to me when he was 6 days old. She never showed any interest in any feeding or care of him. I've seen mares that have no maternal instincts at all

In women postpartum depression has, in many cases, been linked to extremes in levels of progesterone (way too high or low). Mares that have very low progesterone levels prior to birth or who's levels decrease too fast after birth have high rates of foal rejection. Also mares who retain their placentas longer are less likely to reject foals. Progesterone levels start dropping rapidly immediately after shedding the placenta so I would hazard a guess that foal rejection may very well be a mares postpartum rejection, at least in some cases.

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BLOODSTONE FARMS

[PAS]

Never bottle feed! The babies learn real quick to drink out of a bucket. It is just not worth the risk.

[Scupu]

I think that Carol Magnin(SP?) had posted in the thread on the SE auctions that took place about a vet in Tx who did a lot of work with rejector mares. It might be worth looking into. Also on an earlier thread I remember someone else posting something about giving a drug which stimulated maternal instinct but can't remember the details or which thread it was posted on.
I also believe that a lot of this tendency has been created by our interferance and that unfortunately it does seem to pass down from mother to daughter.
Lisa

[Kisra]

I had an older maiden mare that foaled last year.  She had been rejected as a baby so I was very concerned about her foaling.  A friend had suggested a homeopathic remedy to use on her a month before foaling which I did.  She turned out to be a fine mother.  She was happy with the foal but didn't want to nurse her for the first few days.  At first we had to hold her and then just standing outside the stall was good enough. She eventually was good with it.  She wouldn't have won "Mother of the Year" but she did raise the baby fine just not as loving as some of my other mares.  Overall, I was so happy with this because I had heard that rejected foals will often reject their own babies.  

This year I have 2 maidens due and I am praying that they are both fine!  Their dams are excellent mothers!

[Tom]

PAS, on 26 March 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

Never bottle feed! The babies learn real quick to drink out of a bucket. It is just not worth the risk.

We have only had one foal that was rejected and it was a strange foaling situation that I am not sure you could pin on the breed at all. I have heard of plenty of breeds rejecting folas so not sure if SE are any more prone to rejection or not.
I agree with above though, avoid bottle feeding. We had to bottle feed the first day, just to make sure the foal got colostrum. After that we found a product made by Buckeye that worked great, expesnsive but it worked. You mixed a bucket full and something in the product prevented the foal from drinking it all at once. Bucket would last 12 hours and foal drank just like it would from mom.

[razgold]

I don't think is just the SE's. And I'm not so sure it's hereditary. I have 1 SE and she has had 2 foals both of which she adored from the start.

I have a Crabbet mare that was not rejected herself but she rejected her foals except the last one. Her one and only daughter went on to have a foal which she rejected and I had to hand feed it. She never produced another foal so I can't say if she would have done it again. Her one foal she had, a filly, went on to breed so dar 1 foal and she adored it from the start.

I think with the mare that rejected all her foals except the last one it was hormonal. After 2/3 weeks she she an excellent mum. Her last foal she was in a stall where she could see another horse close up and her motherly instincts kicked in straight away.

Her daughter with the the 1 foal was my show mare and was totally spoilt and just didn't want anything to do with the foal. As I said I hand reared that foal and she had a foster mum for company and teach her how to be a horse. She still regards me though as her mum and will talk constantly to me.

Sue.

[Fairfax]

Saddlebreds..there are just too many good mares to spend much time with problem mares. Rule of thumb: Two kicks at the can. IF there is a rejection, maiden mare I will try my best to get the maternal juices flowing. That is why I do not bother to imprint as I do not want the foal to bond with me over its mother. If the foal dies for any reason, the mare will be given an opportunity however I will not breed her back to the same stallion. Any problems 2nd time around, the mare is trained and sold for academy or equitation or show work however the buyer is told up front...not a broodmare candidate.

There is not the obsession to breed mares like there is in Arabs. Sadly, if an Arab mare is related to a National Ch, or TT she will  many times be bred on that merit. If she herself wins ... wow...that guarantees a life of maternity.

Saddlebreds work a little different (not necessarily better or correct). World Champions and very successful show mares are kept as show mares. Why ruin them by making them have a foal. Now there is ET that might change gradually. The comment has been made to Saddlebred owners that we are NOT breeding the mares proven to be trainable and winners in the show ring...we breed their sisters who might lack a trainable mind.

The Saddlebred is produced to have a function other than pretty. There is now a heavy demand for "pretty futurity winners who also win under harness or leather" One hundred thousand dollars is a very acceptable amount for a mare who is able to do inhand AND performance.

Life is too short and there are too many good mares of all breeds to try and "make" a mare be a broodmare.

[An American Breeder]

Made any decisions, Heidi?

[Heidi]

No part of the reason for asking was I helped at a farm last weekend, that mare hated her foal I mean hated when after 36 hours of someone sitting with her she was firing off at the foal in Ernest she was removed. The colt was in the next stall and she didn't even come look at him. She trotted off to the pasture without a care or a look back.

[An American Breeder]

This may get me in trouble but what the hay?  To me, That mare should never be bred again -- she should be a saddle horse.  The future of the breed does not need that trait to be bred on.  Why am I so strong about it?  Because you say she trotted off and would not pay any attention to the foal -- that is not normal.

[Fairfax]

Sounds like my ex wife

[Rakis Arabians]

I have never in 25 years had a mare reject. I have even foaled out 2 mares that were rejecters and they accepted their foal under my watch.

I ALWAYS give banamine injection once they drop their placenta. A nice warm bran mash is another thing I do.

One of the mares that had rejected previously, had 2 painful deliveries and lost one of the foals. So, we were very careful to make the experience a perfect one.

The other mare was so attached to her owner, that the minute the lady walked into the barn the mare started rejecting. I made the owner leave and stay away until the foal with 36 hours old and the bond was well established.

I have had SE's for all of my 25 years of breeding. I even had one mare that would steal any other foals and was caught nursing all the foals in pasture. She milked like a cow!

Good luck!