35 replies to this topic

[Rosie]

Hi all, can anyone tell me who were the Root Stock horses in the E.A.O? I have read that there were 16 mares & 41 stallions but can't find a list of their names in my limited library / or via the internet. Also I 've read that in 1920 Crabbet horses were exported to the E.A.O, I have found a list of 19 horses but have read elsewhere that there 20 - can anyone confirm if there were 19 or infact 20?

I find it interesting the amount of Blunt / Crabbet blood found within todays SE's & have read that some of these lines are no longer found within pure Crabbets - just trying to educate myself a little more!

Any information or suggested reading, is much appreciated!

[desertrat]

Hi Rosie!
Try "The Crabbet Arabian Stud" By Rosemary Archer and Colin Pearson. Really cool book!

[Seglavi]

Rosie, on 03 August 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

Hi all, can anyone tell me who were the Root Stock horses in the E.A.O? I have read that there were 16 mares & 41 stallions but can't find a list of their names in my limited library / or via the internet. Also I 've read that in 1920 Crabbet horses were exported to the E.A.O, I have found a list of 19 horses but have read elsewhere that there 20 - can anyone confirm if there were 19 or infact 20?

I find it interesting the amount of Blunt / Crabbet blood found within todays SE's & have read that some of these lines are no longer found within pure Crabbets - just trying to educate myself a little more!

Any information or suggested reading, is much appreciated!

Rosie, go to www.heirloomarabianstud.com and read the subjects there. Col. John Fippen spent the last years of his life compiling information on these horses. He wrote and published a book on it which is still available and very interesting. You can buy it directly from his daughter through the website or contact info@alkhamsa.org. Good luck, very interesting stuff. The worldwide herd that trace in all lines to those foundation horses, continues to diminish.

[hansi]

Seglavi, on 04 August 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

Rosie, go to www.heirloomarabianstud.com and read the subjects there. Col. John Fippen spent the last years of his life compiling information on these horses. He wrote and published a book on it which is still available and very interesting. You can buy it directly from his daughter through the website or contact info@alkhamsa.org. Good luck, very interesting stuff. The worldwide herd that trace in all lines to those foundation horses, continues to diminish.

Are you certain Pam, cobtinue to Diminish" I dont think so considering the incredible production of E.A.O. and Egyptian breeders. It looks like if they preserved/preserve more and better than many of us do here, or could do here.
We need to open our eyes for other parts of the world, not just here. Otherwise we lock ourself into believing something which might not be correct.

just my opinion

Hansi

[Nadj Al Nur]

Seglavi, on 04 August 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

Rosie, go to www.heirloomarabianstud.com and read the subjects there. Col. John Fippen spent the last years of his life compiling information on these horses. He wrote and published a book on it which is still available and very interesting. You can buy it directly from his daughter through the website or contact info@alkhamsa.org. Good luck, very interesting stuff. The worldwide herd that trace in all lines to those foundation horses, continues to diminish.

I have just recently aquired a copy of this book (thanx to Joe L ) and it really is very interesting. It's going to take me a long time to digest all of the information in that one.........
C

[Rosie]

Hi all thanks for the suggestions, I have just looked at the Heirloom website, it's very interesting & it told me where to find the list of horses I'm looking for, so does anyone have the book "The History of the Royal Agricultural Societies Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses"? The Root Mares & Root Stallions are listed on pages 33-44 (16 mares & 41 stallions), I would much appreciate if someone could tell me who these horses were.

[Seglavi]

hansi, on 04 August 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

Are you certain Pam, cobtinue to Diminish" I dont think so considering the incredible production of E.A.O. and Egyptian breeders. It looks like if they preserved/preserve more and better than many of us do here, or could do here.
We need to open our eyes for other parts of the world, not just here. Otherwise we lock ourself into believing something which might not be correct.

just my opinion

Hansi

Hansi, the Heirloom group does not include most of the modern SE horses, only those who trace to the core group. There are none left at the EAO, theirs having been crossed with the modern imports after 1914. Not trying to argue, just trying to clear that up.

Rosie,
I googled "History of the Royal Agricultural Societies Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses (1948) and found a reference that stated the foundation horses are in Judy Forbis's book "The Classic Arabian Horse". I haven't looked it up yet but will try to get to it today. Good luck.

[hansi]

Seglavi, on 05 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Hansi, the Heirloom group does not include most of the modern SE horses, only those who trace to the core group. There are none left at the EAO, theirs having been crossed with the modern imports after 1914. Not trying to argue, just trying to clear that up.

Rosie,
I googled "History of the Royal Agricultural Societies Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses (1948) and found a reference that stated the foundation horses are in Judy Forbis's book "The Classic Arabian Horse". I haven't looked it up yet but will try to get to it today. Good luck.

thanks Pam

The Col. was adamend over his opinion regarding up to 1920/21. He did not take into account the Syrians/Saudis thereafter and or the rAS. I talked to him about it when he was working on it as I supplied him with a lot of information he used.

We are talking here about the Blunt Import/RAS, I guess? Well these are still breeding on at least in Egypt etc. Prior to 1920/21 there were no imports from the Blunts, or what could have bred on unless my memory fails me.

Matter of facts Egypt preserved some lines which are
getting rare here and possibly a new importation by those interested might fill the gap. They are still using the Kuhaylan Kurush, Abayyan Umm Jurays.
Of course Saudi Arabia -Marbat Stud-, has about 150 Obeyans, top ones including some super stallions.

I am amazed to realize how strongly Egypt bred over the past 10 years. The Private Breeders outbred in numbers the EAO and the EAO is capable of selling most their sales stock through their auctions and of course privatly, and that to important farms in Egypt,Kuwait, etc. The total number now can easily reach "10,000". I only have it to "2003" as their stud book is not out yet of the continuation.
And that number combined should reach easily over 10,000. Only about 3percent cover the Sharkasi blood which appears to be in good demand, thanks God.

I also includes some of the el-Kahila,Habeeba,Rabab,and some skowronek stradles.

It also shows me how strongly these breeders work together and the beautiful part is that these horses are bred by natural service and in demand. The last auction I am aware off brought 5figure prices for colts and one mare of the Abayyan Umm Juray Strain brought $ 100,000 a few auctions back,! It was a good one.

I guess we all need to pay attention of what we are doing here, and continue good preservation work, eh.

Take care
Hansi

[Ray]

Rosie, on 05 August 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Hi all thanks for the suggestions, I have just looked at the Heirloom website, it's very interesting & it told me where to find the list of horses I'm looking for, so does anyone have the book "The History of the Royal Agricultural Societies Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses"? The Root Mares & Root Stallions are listed on pages 33-44 (16 mares & 41 stallions), I would much appreciate if someone could tell me who these horses were.

Hi Rosie,

The root list is given in the EAO Studbook Vol I, written by Dr. Abdel Alim Ashoub in 1948 (titled History of the Royal Agriculture Society’s Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses). 16 mares and 41 stallions are shown in the list. RAS purchased 20 head from Lady Wentworth, in September of 1920, comprised of 18 stallions and two fillies (see list below).

The Forbis book is a little confusing, as she has listed more than 16 mares and she also indicates there were 48 stallions, when Ashoub has given 41. It would appear that Forbis has included some horses from Inshass and other sources in her count, but does not list them all by name in her book.

The 16 mares in the root list:
1. Obeya
2. Bint Obeya
3. Shamma
4. Bint Hadba El-Saghira
5. Bint Gamila
6. Farida
7. Aroussa
8. Gamila Manial
9. Dalal
10. Durra
11. Saada
12. Radia
13. Jamila
14. Nafaa el Saghira
15. Bint Risala (Crabbet)
16. Bint Riyala (Crabbet)

The 41 stallions:

Fantoum, Ibn Halabi, Ibn Kawkab, Jamil, Shour, Faris, Massoud, Rabdan, Ghazal, Garboe, Seil, Tayyar, Gamil Manial, Hadban, Mabrouk Manial, Bark, Kawkab, Sader, Kheir, Haroun, Kroush, Akram, El Nasser.

From Crabbet Stud are: Zeidan, Samir, Besheir, Rayyan, Nawab, Razaz, Raseed, Solajan, El Borak, Karun, Bustan, Ras El Mal, Keslan, Kamar, Kazmeen, Hamran, Ibn Yashmak, Mabruk Blunt.

I hope this helps in your search for names.

[hansi]

Ray, on 07 August 2011 - 11:08 PM, said:

Hi Rosie,

The root list is given in the EAO Studbook Vol I, written by Dr. Abdel Alim Ashoub in 1948 (titled History of the Royal Agriculture Society’s Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses). 16 mares and 41 stallions are shown in the list. RAS purchased 20 head from Lady Wentworth, in September of 1920, comprised of 18 stallions and two fillies (see list below).

The Forbis book is a little confusing, as she has listed more than 16 mares and she also indicates there were 48 stallions, when Ashoub has given 41. It would appear that Forbis has included some horses from Inshass and other sources in her count, but does not list them all by name in her book.

The 16 mares in the root list:
1. Obeya
2. Bint Obeya
3. Shamma
4. Bint Hadba El-Saghira
5. Bint Gamila
6. Farida
7. Aroussa
8. Gamila Manial
9. Dalal
10. Durra
11. Saada
12. Radia
13. Jamila
14. Nafaa el Saghira
15. Bint Risala (Crabbet)
16. Bint Riyala (Crabbet)

The 41 stallions:

Fantoum, Ibn Halabi, Ibn Kawkab, Jamil, Shour, Faris, Massoud, Rabdan, Ghazal, Garboe, Seil, Tayyar, Gamil Manial, Hadban, Mabrouk Manial, Bark, Kawkab, Sader, Kheir, Haroun, Kroush, Akram, El Nasser.

From Crabbet Stud are: Zeidan, Samir, Besheir, Rayyan, Nawab, Razaz, Raseed, Solajan, El Borak, Karun, Bustan, Ras El Mal, Keslan, Kamar, Kazmeen, Hamran, Ibn Yashmak, Mabruk Blunt.

I hope this helps in your search for names.

thanks Ray, yes that should help her. dont know either how Judi F came to her total numbers.


hansi

[Rosie]

Thank you for this information Ray & so sorry I haven't replied sooner, very helpful !

Another question, out of the Blunt / Crabbet horses in the vol 1 list, which are still found within the SE's / AK's of today, I recognise Kazmeen for instance.

[M Huprich]

i read somewhere that they were now breeding via ai in Egypt and also doing ETs there. I don't have further details on which farms.

[hansi]

Seglavi, on 05 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Hansi, the Heirloom group does not include most of the modern SE horses, only those who trace to the core group. There are none left at the EAO, theirs having been crossed with the modern imports after 1914. Not trying to argue, just trying to clear that up.

Rosie,
I googled "History of the Royal Agricultural Societies Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses (1948) and found a reference that stated the foundation horses are in Judy Forbis's book "The Classic Arabian Horse". I haven't looked it up yet but will try to get to it today. Good luck.

you are very correct, it does only include to 1920/21.

Hansi

[Ray]

M Huprich, on 26 January 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

i read somewhere that they were now breeding via ai in Egypt and also doing ETs there. I don't have further details on which farms.

Well, there is a sucker born every minute - or so I hear. Serious breeders are not using either of these methods.

[drquinndsa]

Our own Salazar SF is considered Heirloom/El Dereei. He does have good credentials:).

http://heirloomelder.../SalazarSF.html

[Ray]

Rosie, on 26 January 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Thank you for this information Ray & so sorry I haven't replied sooner, very helpful !

Another question, out of the Blunt / Crabbet horses in the vol 1 list, which are still found within the SE's / AK's of today, I recognise Kazmeen for instance.

A really good source listing of the ancestor horses within various breeding groups is the Al Khamsa website. Here is a link to their home page: http://www.alkhamsa.org/

If you click on "read more" in the History and Heritage box, you will see more headings on the left - Ancestral Elements is where you will find a great description of the various group names and then there is a list of Foundation Horses where you will find the group names, such as Blunt, and you can click on each one of those groups to see a list of the foundation horses. This may help you gain a better perspective on the groups and their "connections" through various horses.

I don't think there is a description of which of the groups fall into the SE bucket, but maybe Pam or Jill can tell us for sure. Otherwise, if you have a question about a particular horse, just fire away and someone here can help.

[Rosie]

Thank you Ray again ! Have been reading through the AK website (again) & I have another question if you or someone else don't mind answering for me, I'm a little confused with the AK foundadtion Blunt horses, (although think I may have answered my own question, just want to check it out though) Serra was bred by the Blunts but is listed as Egypt 1, is that because her sire was bred by APS & her dam is all of APS breeding (bred by Blunt though) & he is recognised as part of the Egypt 1 Ancestral Element, whereas the 11 horses on the Blunt Ancestral Element even though were not actually bred by them, their original breeders do not have or are not included within another Ancestral Element?

A final question (for the timebeing!), the AK site has that there are currently 192 AK foundadtion horses represented in the pedigrees of living AK horses but there is 194 on the list, so have 2 lines been lost since the list was originally made?

By the way your stallion drquinndsa looks lovely!

[Jill Erisman]

Ray, on 31 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

A really good source listing of the ancestor horses within various breeding groups is the Al Khamsa website. Here is a link to their home page: http://www.alkhamsa.org/

If you click on "read more" in the History and Heritage box, you will see more headings on the left - Ancestral Elements is where you will find a great description of the various group names and then there is a list of Foundation Horses where you will find the group names, such as Blunt, and you can click on each one of those groups to see a list of the foundation horses. This may help you gain a better perspective on the groups and their "connections" through various horses.

I don't think there is a description of which of the groups fall into the SE bucket, but maybe Pam or Jill can tell us for sure. Otherwise, if you have a question about a particular horse, just fire away and someone here can help.

Thanks for posting this Ray!

Regarding a description of "which of the groups fall into the SE bucket,"
it isn't immediately obvious on the Ancestral Elements page of the
AK website, but if you scroll down to the section for the Blunt
ancestral element it says:

"NOTE: Horses known as "Straight Egyptian" always trace to
both EGYPT I and BLUNT. Most also trace to INSHASS and/or EGYPT II"

Al Khamsa's ancestral elements, foundation horses and roster are
specific to horses in North America. I think it will be interesting to
see this expand with the addition of the Tahawi horses, but don't
want to stray off topic here too much. More often though, we're lamenting
lines we lost rather than the rare celebration of horses added through
newly discovered material and countless volunteer efforts from
many diverse researchers who tirelessly seek the truth.

Best,

Jill

[Ray]

Rosie, on 31 January 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Thank you Ray again ! Have been reading through the AK website (again) & I have another question if you or someone else don't mind answering for me, I'm a little confused with the AK foundadtion Blunt horses, (although think I may have answered my own question, just want to check it out though) Serra was bred by the Blunts but is listed as Egypt 1, is that because her sire was bred by APS & her dam is all of APS breeding (bred by Blunt though) & he is recognised as part of the Egypt 1 Ancestral Element, whereas the 11 horses on the Blunt Ancestral Element even though were not actually bred by them, their original breeders do not have or are not included within another Ancestral Element?

A final question (for the timebeing!), the AK site has that there are currently 192 AK foundadtion horses represented in the pedigrees of living AK horses but there is 194 on the list, so have 2 lines been lost since the list was originally made?

By the way your stallion drquinndsa looks lovely!

The 11 horses under Blunt were acquired directly from the desert - or desert bred. Therefore, the ancestral element would be Arabia, I guess.
The Blunts owned both the sire and dam of Serra and were the breeders, but the parents were of Egypt I and then going back to the desert at some point. That is my understanding of it.

I don't know about the 192 count vs 194. Jill?

[Jill Erisman]

Rosie, on 31 January 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Thank you Ray again ! Have been reading through the AK website (again) & I have another question if you or someone else don't mind answering for me, I'm a little confused with the AK foundadtion Blunt horses, (although think I may have answered my own question, just want to check it out though) Serra was bred by the Blunts but is listed as Egypt 1, is that because her sire was bred by APS & her dam is all of APS breeding (bred by Blunt though) & he is recognised as part of the Egypt 1 Ancestral Element, whereas the 11 horses on the Blunt Ancestral Element even though were not actually bred by them, their original breeders do not have or are not included within another Ancestral Element?

A final question (for the timebeing!), the AK site has that there are currently 192 AK foundadtion horses represented in the pedigrees of living AK horses but there is 194 on the list, so have 2 lines been lost since the list was originally made?

By the way your stallion drquinndsa looks lovely!

Wow Rosie, great questions!

Regarding Serra, you are correct: even though she was bred
by the Blunts, the farthest back you can go in her pedigree takes you to
Foundation Horses from the Egypt I Ancestral Element so hence her
designation as Egypt I.

The 11 horses designated as Blunt Ancestral Element were all imported
by the Blunts from the desert (often referred to as the "Blunt desert-breds").
So if you look up for example Rodania (BLT) in the AK online roster, you will
see she is listed as a Foundation Horse, and as 100% Blunt Ancestral Element.
But you will also see this:

"A Kuhaylat 'Ajuz of Ibn Rudan (also called Kuhaylan Rudaniyah) bred by
Ibn Rudan of the Ruwalah, captured 1880 from Shaykh Sattam Ibn Sha'lan
of the Ruwalah by Tais Ibn Sharban of the Qumusah section of the Saba'ah tribe.
Purchased from Ibn Sharban by Wilfrid and Lady Anne Blunt and imported in
1881 to England by the Blunts.
NOTES: The above information is from Rodania's entry in Weatherby's
General Stud Book Vol. XIV, p605, which is consistent with material from
Archer, et al. [1978, pp105-6] and Upton [1980, p88], both said to be based
on access to records of the Blunts."

So the breeder and/or tribal information is recorded as well as the path whereby
the Foundation Horse came to us, and as much as possible that
evidence is corroborated via other sources and also listed. Where
sources do not agree, all the information is still provided so future
options are left open to further research.

On your last question:
<the AK site has that there are currently 192 AK foundadtion horses
represented in the pedigrees of living AK horses but there is 194 on
the list, so have 2 lines been lost since the list was originally made?>

I also counted 194 Foundation Horses on the list but I don't
have an immediate answer. I'll do some investigating. Hope to
have an answer for you soon, and I hope this helps!

Best,

Jill