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Breeding for the Best Colt in the World


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#1 LMG

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:22 PM

I know I bring this up from time to time and make people crazy, but I just fed this morning and looked at my two colts from last year, and I am just happier than a clam about them. The filly is very nice, but there is nothing like a well put together, "I'm so full of myself" colt to demonstrate to a breeder where they are going with a breeding program.

It's true, I'm not as crazy about the teeth marks in my very expensive, 'The North Face' jacket I bought to keep me from being drowned in the bucket rain falls we have here in my area between November and May, but that part of their behavior is getting better and they are both quite attractive and different types of SE.'s It is my hope that I will get to see both of them under saddle within the time I have left, and that they will be a credit to me, to the stallion owners and to the people who bred their dams.

Both of the sires of these two colts were chosen for their personal conformation, their pedigrees which I've know the ancestors of for the last nearly fifty years and the purpose of the breeding was to breed my mares to stallions in which, the outcome, whether colt or filly, woud be one that I would keep myself and not break down into tears and wail, "Oh, my God! Another colt and what am I going to do with him."

Further, I wanted functional animals. How do we get function? Well there is an old saying that: "form dictates function," so one breeds from the ground up, that is to say: feet, legs, shoulder, hip, neck length and setting and last of all the 'head.' So we take a mare, that we think is a pretty good live example of that which we would like to see reproduced (not something that needs a plastic surgeon's assist) and we breed her to like kind. A stallion which is definitely as good, and hopefully a little better in the department where our mare needs a boost and we do not breed apples to oranges and wonder why the outcome looks like fruit salad, and we know the ancestors in the mare and stallion so we don't get something like a fruit fly error by forgetting to put the lid on our breeding jar in our genetics class. (Not that I knew anyone like that.)

Why am I talking about this? Because Billy Williams posted a photo of a horse called AK Ibn Shalaan, who was by Rasmoniet and out of Ahroufa on the Al Khamsa, Horses Past, Present, etc., page of Facebook and this lovely lovely stallion, left no asil offspring and only one domestic that bred on, that I could find from AHA Data Source.

We are becoming more and more concentrated in our core stock and we wonder why this happened. Obviously the economy is one reason, but people are still breeding horse (no they haven't stopped) and then they are producing colts that they and the public don't want. We need to remind ourselves that when we breed a mare, it should not be for the reason of hoping for a filly which we can then breed (no matter she may look like a committee design for a camel) and then we can breed her daughter, ad infinitem. No, we should breed with the idea, that should I get a colt, I'm really have reason to believe that I did all my home work, that this colt may very well be a barn burner and when he hits the ground, I am going not to breed another horse, until I've given this baby some education and an opportunity to make his way in the world, that not only is his conformation good, but that his mind is also, that anyone interested in him, even if they don't want a breeding stallion, would say, I can take this colt and if I want to show him, show him against all comers, not just arabians, and I would be proud to say I own him. Or, that this is an animal that my entire family will want to have as our recreational vehicle and we love him and he loves us back.

We need to stop marching to other's drums, which the Arabian Horse Industry has done for years and forget the horse that just won some National Title as being meaningful, it isn't, it's just a Mr. Universe contest. The proof is in the offspring of a stallion, and particularly his sons and we should look and look and look at colts before we make a choice about breeding to a stallion, because it is very likely (50%) that a colt will be the result of a breeding and we do not want to throw him away.

Lorriee
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#2 AA Wish

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:51 AM

Breeding is a complicated endeavor. Last year was a good colt year for me as well. He's the 'real' deal for what I'm trying to do.
Julee

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#3 ponygirl

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:19 AM

I did not breed for this yr. but I am hoping for some nice ones next year!
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#4 LMG

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:19 AM

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response. So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said: "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along." There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee

#5 razgold

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:44 PM

I've got high hopes for my foal next year out of Cassiopeia WP. It is by Sir Habbas Pasha. I'm not bothered what sex it is but I just hope it's black. Cassy is so dark this year despite the over 100 degree temps here all summer. She looks nearly black herself. Roll on the end of March. I can already feel tiny kicks from it.

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#6 Seglavi

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 10:46 PM

This is a great thread! I know many small breeders who don't mind what the foal's gender is but do seriously try to produce the best baby they can. I too was saddened to see that AK Ibn Shalaan had no AK get and he really was an unusual and beautiful horse. The numbers game is always the challenge. If you produce 15+ foals per year, you probably also have an accountant who is advising that the investment in the 7.5 colts in that crop, is probably not worthwhile in the short run. The problem here is "the short run", by which I mean folks trying to make a fortune in the horse business (I know, I know, you are all cracking up, right?) and then quickly moving on to the next hot item when this one doesn't pan out as advertised. How many breeders can actually project what a colt will grow into? I remember seeing Ansata Abbas Pasha as a 2 year old at the Babson Farm and from my notes re-reading how awful I thought he was. That was about 10 years or so later when I saw him at an Arabian Horse Fair and he blew my lights out! Glad I wasn't in charge of the decision about what to do with him at that point!
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#7 mistuarabians

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:05 AM

This is a great thread! I know many small breeders who don't mind what the foal's gender is but do seriously try to produce the best baby they can. I too was saddened to see that AK Ibn Shalaan had no AK get and he really was an unusual and beautiful horse. The numbers game is always the challenge. If you produce 15+ foals per year, you probably also have an accountant who is advising that the investment in the 7.5 colts in that crop, is probably not worthwhile in the short run. The problem here is "the short run", by which I mean folks trying to make a fortune in the horse business (I know, I know, you are all cracking up, right?) and then quickly moving on to the next hot item when this one doesn't pan out as advertised. How many breeders can actually project what a colt will grow into? I remember seeing Ansata Abbas Pasha as a 2 year old at the Babson Farm and from my notes re-reading how awful I thought he was. That was about 10 years or so later when I saw him at an Arabian Horse Fair and he blew my lights out! Glad I wasn't in charge of the decision about what to do with him at that point!


Indeed a great thread!
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#8 AA Wish

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:09 PM

Breeding is a complex thing. I've been blessed over these past ten years to be able to keep the offspring that we've produced. This is helping tune in on the best possible choices with my stallion and mares. I get to work with them, and train them. This allows me to see which are talented enough for the goal that I've set and which aren't quite there.

Some of the things I've learned:

I first started with an athletic model. I wanted every horse I breed to be able to move from the hind leg. They had to be able to lift in the front. I found that some of my mares produced better than others. And the only way to find out was to breed them. Not all mares breed exactly as anticipated. Sometimes they produce better than they are and sometimes they don't produce much at all. My stallion is a better producers of mares than colts. So I have to take that into account.

Trainability! Big one!

I had two stallions....one I showed and did everything with. I always feel safe around him and confident that he's not going to try to hurt me. The other stallion was a constant battle of dominance. He might have produced some showy colts, but that was not my focus for my program. He went to a home where his talents were more appreciated.

I kept a 2005 son whole. He is so incredibly nice - disposition wise. Anyone can touch him and work with him. He's so pleasant. Never bites, never challenges. However, he's not as free in the shoulder as the fillies from my stallion and he's not very tall. But I do love his beautiful neck carriage. He's quite reminisant of old type classical dressage horses. So, I haven't gelded him as of yet but neither have a breed him either. He is starting his under saddle work this fall and how well he does with that will continue to factor in where he keeps his current status.

One of my mare lines produced extreme sentivity. At first I thought it was just the mare and maybe her early handling. But found that this 'sensitivty' came through the offspring as well. So, I gave the mare away and stopped that line.

My favorite line was a surprize to me. I acquired this mare more as an 'investment' as she was of popular halter lines and I'm breeding for classical dressage type. Phenotype wise - she is not typical of the halter lines. She's big boned and almost coarse. However, when crossed with my stallion, she produced both elegance and athletism. Both of her fillies are keepers! Her oldest filly has given me the colt that I am hoping is going to fill the bill. The disposition of this colt is not only sweet but very brave and noble. Nothing startles him. He takes life in its strides. Now, he's not perfect, but given his personality traits, I'm very impressed.

So, breeding is more than just choosing a stallion and crossing it with a mare. If you want a distintive program you've got to be able to put in the time, money and energy to see it through.

There are breeders out there, who have created their own 'look' through hard work. It's pretty easy to spot an Al-Marah horse or a Varian horse. Whether or not one likes these horses, you can tell that the breeder had an idea for the end result and accomplished it!
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#9 desertrat

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:17 PM

I absolutely believe mares and stallions should be trained as riding horses before being used as breeding animals. Training makes them much easier to live with and provides a good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. We must know the strength and weaknesses of
the bloodlines we are working with. We must know what we like, what faults we will accept, and those we reject. Not every foal is going to be a world-beater. Even the breeding of the "best to the best" can produce less than stellar results. Al-Marah, Varian, Ansata, etc, produce
quality horses. These folks have studied very hard to accomplish their goals. Most of us are in thisbecause we love the horses. Heaven knows we are not going to get "Bill Gates Rich" through horse breeding. Our fulfillment comes from being around something that has
captivated mankind from the earliest times. Please let us do our best for this most noble of creatures.

#10 AA Wish

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

Another trait I am trying to breed into my program is boldness and confidence. One of my mares, an appy of unknown breeding, has produced the most awesome 1/2 arabians. Who would have thought it? They have presence and are willing to go or do anything. They can be shaking in their boots but will hold their ground, no matter what. And, they are athletic and good natured. This mare's offspring are incredible.
Julee

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#11 desertrat

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:22 PM

Another trait I am trying to breed into my program is boldness and confidence. One of my mares, an appy of unknown breeding, has produced the most awesome 1/2 arabians. Who would have thought it? They have presence and are willing to go or do anything. They can be shaking in their boots but will hold their ground, no matter what. And, they are athletic and good natured. This mare's offspring are incredible.

Lot'sa Arab blood bred in to the Appys. Makes grand horses!

#12 sgarabians

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:00 AM

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response. So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said: "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along." There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee


Loriee what exactly is the question you refer to?
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#13 Ray

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 03:15 PM

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response. So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said: "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along." There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee


Well, Egypt had several lines which produced great horses. If it hadn't been Nazeer, it would have been another stallion we find in plentitude in modern breeding.

With regard to breeding for good colts, or good anything, it's a crap-shoot - generally speaking. My Uncle used to say, "Well, let's do something, even if it's wrong." Which meant, doing something is better, or at least more interesting, than sitting on your thumbs doing nothing while you grow old and never get anything done. Similarly, "you go to war with the Army you've got." We go to the breeding shed with the horses we've got.

You can spend a lifetime traveling over that next hilltop in pursuit of perfection. I do agree that care in choosing the "horses you've got" could be helpful, but you can't spin your wheels too long worrying about your choices and not making decisions.

#14 Karen Page

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:41 PM

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response. So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said: "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along." There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee


How about this 24 month old colt? I think he could very well be the next Minstril. Maybe not the next Nazeer or Skowronek as I think their impact has been decidedly greater than Minstril ... at this point.

Stardust Ibn Rafiq (Habib Rafiq X Amiri Norissa)

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Habib Rafiq (El Norus X MB Deserelle) SE/AK
Sean Daaim CH (Fa Daalim X Ms Tuht - Tuhotmos daughter) SE/AK/SO
Stardust Ibn Rafiq (Habib Rafiq X Amiri Norissa) SE/AK Available
Stardust Dreamcatcher (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Sparkle (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Moonshot (Habib Rafiq X Glamour Glitter) Egyptian Sired Available
DA Autumn Delight (DB Destiny Moniet X Whocenta RSI) AK/SO
GAH ShikosHafiiida (Kazmeen Ibn Shiko X DA Serendipity) SE/AK/SO
Imperial Naaddela (Moniet El Nafis X Imperial Mistry) SE/AK
Stardust Angyl (Habib Rafiq X Misty - Silver black pony) 1/2 Arabian, carries the silver dapple gene.
Breezie (Grade silver bay pony - hunter, trail horse)
Little Bit O'Heaven (Grade black bay pony)

#15 Karen Page

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:52 PM

Another trait I am trying to breed into my program is boldness and confidence. One of my mares, an appy of unknown breeding, has produced the most awesome 1/2 arabians. Who would have thought it? They have presence and are willing to go or do anything. They can be shaking in their boots but will hold their ground, no matter what. And, they are athletic and good natured. This mare's offspring are incredible.



Do I have the bloodline for you!! Habib Rafiq used to play with plastic bags, chasing the other horses with it: "Look what I found!" The only thing he really ever stopped and stared at with a glimmer of flee in his eye, was an emu. Can't say that I blame him. He didn't flee and wound up friends with the stupid bird!

His 1/2 Arab, 1/2 pony daughter Angyl is the epitomy of bold and confident. At 13.3 hands, she rules whatever pasture she's in. She has a lot of go, but totally in control. She's actually my current favorite to ride because she's more like riding a stallion than a mare.

We are still 6-12 months from having any SE/AK offspring of Habib Rafiq under saddle, but his 2 year old son Stardust Ibn Rafiq spent 2 weeks at the trainer and was ready to for them to get on. I don't ride them at 2, so we'll wait a bit longer to actually ride him. The trainer states that he has been the easiest of my horses to train. He's started 5 for me now, with 2 coming home in a couple of weeks. But they are all easy to train. I think part of easy to train is acceptance of the new without freaking out.
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Habib Rafiq (El Norus X MB Deserelle) SE/AK
Sean Daaim CH (Fa Daalim X Ms Tuht - Tuhotmos daughter) SE/AK/SO
Stardust Ibn Rafiq (Habib Rafiq X Amiri Norissa) SE/AK Available
Stardust Dreamcatcher (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Sparkle (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Moonshot (Habib Rafiq X Glamour Glitter) Egyptian Sired Available
DA Autumn Delight (DB Destiny Moniet X Whocenta RSI) AK/SO
GAH ShikosHafiiida (Kazmeen Ibn Shiko X DA Serendipity) SE/AK/SO
Imperial Naaddela (Moniet El Nafis X Imperial Mistry) SE/AK
Stardust Angyl (Habib Rafiq X Misty - Silver black pony) 1/2 Arabian, carries the silver dapple gene.
Breezie (Grade silver bay pony - hunter, trail horse)
Little Bit O'Heaven (Grade black bay pony)

#16 AA Wish

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:14 PM

Do I have the bloodline for you!! Habib Rafiq used to play with plastic bags, chasing the other horses with it: "Look what I found!" The only thing he really ever stopped and stared at with a glimmer of flee in his eye, was an emu. Can't say that I blame him. He didn't flee and wound up friends with the stupid bird!

His 1/2 Arab, 1/2 pony daughter Angyl is the epitomy of bold and confident. At 13.3 hands, she rules whatever pasture she's in. She has a lot of go, but totally in control. She's actually my current favorite to ride because she's more like riding a stallion than a mare.

We are still 6-12 months from having any SE/AK offspring of Habib Rafiq under saddle, but his 2 year old son Stardust Ibn Rafiq spent 2 weeks at the trainer and was ready to for them to get on. I don't ride them at 2, so we'll wait a bit longer to actually ride him. The trainer states that he has been the easiest of my horses to train. He's started 5 for me now, with 2 coming home in a couple of weeks. But they are all easy to train. I think part of easy to train is acceptance of the new without freaking out.



What an interesting boy! I think arabians with this quality are becoming less and less common as the blood lines lean away from performance horses.
Julee

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#17 AA Wish

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:36 PM

Here's a colt that I'm watching and starting under saddle this fall. My favorite thing about him is that he's got such a natural neck carriage. It's not long and snacky as is the present trend, but he is incredibly balanced. He is almost always in self carriage. He's never had a any sort of head setting equipment on him. He has no buldging under neck muscle. It's all right where it should be. If I can start him without messing the natural gift nature has endowed him with, there should be little transisition into carrying the bridle very well. To me he epimizes the 'old classical' dressage horses.

He's also very good natured - a dream to work with and a powerful mover.

Down size - is his down size. He's 14.2 and I'm not particularily fond of chestnut.

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Julee

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#18 Karen Page

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:42 PM

Here's a colt that I'm watching and starting under saddle this fall. My favorite thing about him is that he's got such a natural neck carriage. It's not long and snacky as is the present trend, but he is incredibly balanced. He is almost always in self carriage. He's never had a any sort of head setting equipment on him. He has no buldging under neck muscle. It's all right where it should be. If I can start him without messing the natural gift nature has endowed him with, there should be little transisition into carrying the bridle very well. To me he epimizes the 'old classical' dressage horses.

He's also very good natured - a dream to work with and a powerful mover.

Down size - is his down size. He's 14.2 and I'm not particularily fond of chestnut.

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Very nice. Natural ability makes it so much easier to put the polish on them!

Karen
Karen Page
Stardust Arabians
Lawton, OK
kmpage333@gmail.com

Habib Rafiq (El Norus X MB Deserelle) SE/AK
Sean Daaim CH (Fa Daalim X Ms Tuht - Tuhotmos daughter) SE/AK/SO
Stardust Ibn Rafiq (Habib Rafiq X Amiri Norissa) SE/AK Available
Stardust Dreamcatcher (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Sparkle (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Moonshot (Habib Rafiq X Glamour Glitter) Egyptian Sired Available
DA Autumn Delight (DB Destiny Moniet X Whocenta RSI) AK/SO
GAH ShikosHafiiida (Kazmeen Ibn Shiko X DA Serendipity) SE/AK/SO
Imperial Naaddela (Moniet El Nafis X Imperial Mistry) SE/AK
Stardust Angyl (Habib Rafiq X Misty - Silver black pony) 1/2 Arabian, carries the silver dapple gene.
Breezie (Grade silver bay pony - hunter, trail horse)
Little Bit O'Heaven (Grade black bay pony)

#19 Tom

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 07:59 PM

There are breeders out there, who have created their own 'look' through hard work.


And then there are breeders who claim to have established their own "type" and have been breeding for less than 20 years.

#20 Karen Page

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:51 PM

And then there are breeders who claim to have established their own "type" and have been breeding for less than 20 years.

Or they have no real vision for their program. I think in terms of generations. What am I going to do with not only this foal, but their get and grandget as well.

Karen
Karen Page
Stardust Arabians
Lawton, OK
kmpage333@gmail.com

Habib Rafiq (El Norus X MB Deserelle) SE/AK
Sean Daaim CH (Fa Daalim X Ms Tuht - Tuhotmos daughter) SE/AK/SO
Stardust Ibn Rafiq (Habib Rafiq X Amiri Norissa) SE/AK Available
Stardust Dreamcatcher (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Sparkle (Habib Rafiq X JB Gentleluv - GG Jabask daughter) Egyptian Sired Available
Stardust Moonshot (Habib Rafiq X Glamour Glitter) Egyptian Sired Available
DA Autumn Delight (DB Destiny Moniet X Whocenta RSI) AK/SO
GAH ShikosHafiiida (Kazmeen Ibn Shiko X DA Serendipity) SE/AK/SO
Imperial Naaddela (Moniet El Nafis X Imperial Mistry) SE/AK
Stardust Angyl (Habib Rafiq X Misty - Silver black pony) 1/2 Arabian, carries the silver dapple gene.
Breezie (Grade silver bay pony - hunter, trail horse)
Little Bit O'Heaven (Grade black bay pony)




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