321 replies to this topic

[Jill Erisman]

LMG, on 30 October 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response.  So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said:  "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along."  There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee

I like this question because it makes me pause for some
serious thought on the subject.  Egypt doesn't have the same
"culture" of gelding that the US does at least partially because they
use and continue to test their colts via the racetrack (at least
within the example of the EAO).  Let's take a look at Nazeer briefly
though as an example....

Nazeer was one of Dr. Branch's last RAS breeding decisions, and
in Nazeer's story we see the history & expertise of two of the breed's
master breeders (that also had extensive background as top professional
horsemen of their day) fold together in both the creation & use of this stallion over time.
Von Zantner specifically selected Nazeer from one of the stallion
depots to improve the mares in Egypt he had chosen to use as breeding stock.

Ultimately though, it was Nazeer's exceptional ability to produce
outstanding offspring (that exceeded both himself and the mare in many
instances while still allowing the good qualities of the mare to come through),
that set him apart as we now observe in 20/20 hindsight.  And it has become far less
about his individual qualities that Von Zandtner selected him for and/or his race record.

To my mind, history is showing us in this example, that
we all stand on the shoulders of those who came before
us, and in the end equation what really matters is, as Colonel
Fippen would say it, is "what comes out the pipe."

Great quote from Ray here which I really like:

<snip>"With regard to breeding for good colts, or good anything, it's a crap-shoot -
\generally speaking. My Uncle used to say, "Well, let's do something, even if it's wrong."
Which meant, doing something is better, or at least more interesting, than sitting on your
thumbs doing nothing while you grow old and never get anything done. Similarly, "you go
to war with the Army you've got." We go to the breeding shed with the horses we've got.

You can spend a lifetime traveling over that next hilltop in pursuit of perfection. I do agree
that care in choosing the "horses you've got" could be helpful, but you can't spin your wheels
too long worrying about your choices and not making decisions."<snip>

I think Nazeer's history goes nicely with Ray and his Uncle's sentiments here,
but it also goes with the points Lorriee has made regarding
giving the colts a chance to grow & perform before throwing
all efforts out, to be cliche, with the bathwater.  

Thanks for the question, all these comments and the wonderful
pictures of horses -- love the thinking, learning and growing!

Jill

[Phoenix]

I just took a look at Ray's site and dang what a great collection of super colts he has!

I wouldn't mind having one of those boys in my barn someday.

[VanAlma]

Jill Erisman, on 03 November 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

...Nazeer was one of Dr. Branch's last RAS breeding decisions, and
in Nazeer's story we see the history & expertise of two of the breed's
master breeders (that also had extensive background as top professional
horsemen of their day) fold together in both the creation & use of this stallion over time.
Von Zantner specifically selected Nazeer from one of the stallion
depots to improve the mares in Egypt he had chosen to use as breeding stock.

Ultimately though, it was Nazeer's exceptional ability to produce
outstanding offspring (that exceeded both himself and the mare in many
instances while still allowing the good qualities of the mare to come through),
that set him apart as we now observe in 20/20 hindsight.  And it has become far less
about his individual qualities that Von Zandtner selected him for and/or his race record.

...Jill

Jill - What was his race record? I don't have that info right on hand.

[Morabene]

It is an interesting question. We have a lot of colts out there who should be geldings. Lots of colts who may be good colts who don't get registered. Owners who cry when its a colt.

We don't have the same situation as Egypt. However, notice they grew their colts up, trained them to work (racing) and then sent them out to breed the mares who were brought into the stallion depots. All of these steps cull out colts who probaly shouldn't breed on to the future. So the master breeder had all the things needed to make a good decision for the future of the breed. He could look at a mature stallion who was proven to be trainable, held up physically to the work and he could see how produced. He could see what the previous breeder had produced in a finished product.

Go look at Nazeer's photos, if he was born in your barn would you know it? He does not have the cute dished in head. He has a nice straight profile that is very breedy and dry. He's not the little doll faced horses who are popular now. He has a long clean neck that is well set. Lovely laid back shoulders with withers. Real withers a smooth topline that is not created by fat. Nice hip, etc. Most of the foundation stock was not what is being bred for today so I doubt he would have made it to 2 before being cut in today's breeding farms . . . unless someone was breeding for performance. I've attached a photo of him in racing condition. Not what I'm seeing in the showring or hottly advertised. But I'm sure the genetics are still lurking out there. But I don't see it in the showring real often any more. it use to be common but we've moved away from this conformation.

 nazeer-01.jpg   292.68K   6 downloads
 nazeerpedigree.jpg   92.67K   6 downloads

[AA Wish]

Morabene, on 03 November 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

It is an interesting question. We have a lot of colts out there who should be geldings. Lots of colts who may be good colts who don't get registered. Owners who cry when its a colt.

We don't have the same situation as Egypt. However, notice they grew their colts up, trained them to work (racing) and then sent them out to breed the mares who were brought into the stallion depots. All of these steps cull out colts who probaly shouldn't breed on to the future. So the master breeder had all the things needed to make a good decision for the future of the breed. He could look at a mature stallion who was proven to be trainable, held up physically to the work and he could see how produced. He could see what the previous breeder had produced in a finished product.

Go look at Nazeer's photos, if he was born in your barn would you know it? He does not have the cute dished in head. He has a nice straight profile that is very breedy and dry. He's not the little doll faced horses who are popular now. He has a long clean neck that is well set. Lovely laid back shoulders with withers. Real withers a smooth topline that is not created by fat. Nice hip, etc. Most of the foundation stock was not what is being bred for today so I doubt he would have made it to 2 before being cut in today's breeding farms . . . unless someone was breeding for performance. I've attached a photo of him in racing condition. Not what I'm seeing in the showring or hottly advertised. But I'm sure the genetics are still lurking out there. But I don't see it in the showring real often any more. it use to be common but we've moved away from this conformation.

nazeer-01.jpg
nazeerpedigree.jpg

Great post!

[Jill Erisman]

VanAlma, on 03 November 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Jill - What was his race record? I don't have that info right on hand.

This is kind of an interesting summary of Nazeer's life:
http://excaliburmora...com/nazeer.html

It also shows his race record:  20 (4-6-1-4), but
I don't have the references to verify this.  
Maybe someone else here does and can chime in?

Jill

[Aimbri]

I'm all for waiting on gelding your colts, if at all possible . .  . not those with obvious faults (bad feet, poor shoulder or hip) but those that just don't seem perfect enough.

A few years ago, I had a plethora of colts.  I was planning to wait, but push came to shove and it is simply easier to care for a group of geldings as opposed to a group of young colts, so . . . one day I called the vet out and he gelded the lot of them.  The next spring the sire died, leaving me with only one intact son.  Luckily, this colt was special . . . . I trained him in halter as a yearling and showed him to several wins.  Then . . . he went through that gangly stage that many do as a 3 and 4 yr old . . . then as a 5 yr old he blossomed . . . was becoming better all the time.  I was thrilled and planned showing him again, and getting him started under saddle.  Then  . . . tragedy struck, and on Christmas Eve of 2010, he was chased by a group of thrill seekers until he was hurt . . . it was a broken leg . . . a few days later he underwent 7 hrs of surgery, 2 hrs in the recovery room, until he was able to stand.  The leg rebroke when he stood, and he was then put down.  It was a devastating loss, and I have lost that sireline in my herd.  Meanwhile, a couple of the gelding had turned out to be exceptionally lovely  . . .  but we'll never know that that line could have produced.

[AA Wish]

Aimbri, on 03 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I'm all for waiting on gelding your colts, if at all possible . .  . not those with obvious faults (bad feet, poor shoulder or hip) but those that just don't seem perfect enough.

A few years ago, I had a plethora of colts.  I was planning to wait, but push came to shove and it is simply easier to care for a group of geldings as opposed to a group of young colts, so . . . one day I called the vet out and he gelded the lot of them.  The next spring the sire died, leaving me with only one intact son.  Luckily, this colt was special . . . . I trained him in halter as a yearling and showed him to several wins.  Then . . . he went through that gangly stage that many do as a 3 and 4 yr old . . . then as a 5 yr old he blossomed . . . was becoming better all the time.  I was thrilled and planned showing him again, and getting him started under saddle.  Then  . . . tragedy struck, and on Christmas Eve of 2010, he was chased by a group of thrill seekers until he was hurt . . . it was a broken leg . . . a few days later he underwent 7 hrs of surgery, 2 hrs in the recovery room, until he was able to stand.  The leg rebroke when he stood, and he was then put down.  It was a devastating loss, and I have lost that sireline in my herd.  Meanwhile, a couple of the gelding had turned out to be exceptionally lovely  . . .  but we'll never know that that line could have produced.

You must have been devastated!

[Aimbri]

AA Wish, on 03 November 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

You must have been devastated!

It was almost 2 years ago, but FINALLY his video is available if you'd like to take a look at him.

On youtube type in Aimbri El Matrabb . . . and please let me know what you think.

[Aimbri]

Although I'm always reluctant to agree with Ray . . . (LOL) . . . sometimes I just have to.

You can plan breedings . . . doing the best you can, breeding your best to the best match you can find, but . . . as Ray says . . . it is still just a crapshoot.  What you get . . . what the foal turns out like . . . it's the luck of the draw.  You can do things to increase the odds that the resulting foal may be more to your liking, ie . . . breed to lines that you prefer, but . . . unfortunately . . . it's still a crapshoot.

But then . . . if everything were guaranteed, it would take some of the joy, excitement and anticipation out of it.  And the fantastic sense of accomplishment when a breeding turns out the way you had hoped.  The foal is what you have hoped for . . . . etc., etc.  That is all part of the joy of breeding.

[AA Wish]

Aimbri, on 03 November 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

It was almost 2 years ago, but FINALLY his video is available if you'd like to take a look at him.

On youtube type in Aimbri El Matrabb . . . and please let me know what you think.

Wow!  A fantastic mover and what beautiful open shoulders!   I loved the first part of the video where his two front feet don't even hit the ground.  I think the world is a little poorer for the loss of this boy.



There is a horse on  one of the current on-line auctions reminded me of your boy.  Big bay stallion with really beautiful movement.  However, he is straight polish and not Egyptian.

[Aimbri]

AA Wish, on 03 November 2011 - 08:09 PM, said:

Wow!  A fantastic mover and what beautiful open shoulders!   I loved the first part of the video where his two front feet don't even hit the ground.  I think the world is a little poorer for the loss of this boy.



There is a horse on  one of the current on-line auctions reminded me of your boy.  Big bay stallion with really beautiful movement.  However, he is straight polish and not Egyptian.

Thank you so much for your kind comments . . . he was a special boy to me!

[Morabene]

Aimbri, on 03 November 2011 - 08:17 PM, said:

Thank you so much for your kind comments . . . he was a special boy to me!

I looked at your video and he was lovely. He had a really good ground covering trot. I can see that he was special. I know he is missed. It's so frustrating to loose them when they are old but so much worse when they are young. Raising horses can be a rough business at times.

[LMG]

Tom, on 02 November 2011 - 07:59 PM, said:

And then there are breeders who claim to have established their own "type" and have been breeding for less than 20 years.

Great statement.  Years ago, when I was in college, I use to take Art Courses to fill out units.  Since I did commissions to help pay my way through school, I like taking these courses from time to time, although my major and minor was in the sciences.

Occasionally,  I would meet a student who would be doing some project which was completely counter to the assignment and when I would  ask what they were doing, I would hear:  "I don't need to learn to use the medium, I have my own style and this is a waste of my time."  Such chutzpah, usually came from a no-talent, and often I would respond:  Even the great artists of the Renaissance had to apprentice to someone, often only getting to paint toes on fat ladies in the background of " The Rape of the Sabine Women," or chipping out marble boxes in which to keep one's poisons from going bad, while you have so little ability to draw, I didn't recognize the fish you put in the ocean.  Are you sure this is going to be a field in which you have a chance of making a living?"

Usually, they would move and sit somewhere else.

Lorriee

[Nadj Al Nur]

LMG, on 04 November 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Great statement.  Years ago, when I was in college, I use to take Art Courses to fill out units.  Since I did commissions to help pay my way through school, I like taking these courses from time to time, although my major and minor was in the sciences.

Occasionally,  I would meet a student who would be doing some project which was completely counter to the assignment and when I would  ask what they were doing, I would hear:  "I don't need to learn to use the medium, I have my own style and this is a waste of my time."  Such chutzpah, usually came from a no-talent, and often I would respond:  Even the great artists of the Renaissance had to apprentice to someone, often only getting to paint toes on fat ladies in the background of " The Rape of the Sabine Women," or chipping out marble boxes in which to keep one's poisons from going bad, while you have so little ability to draw, I didn't recognize the fish you put in the ocean.  Are you sure this is going to be a field in which you have a chance of making a living?"

Usually, they would move and sit somewhere else.

Lorriee

But Lorriee.....I betcha a nickle that if they entered their "fish" in a juried show, the judges would pin them too...............
A friend and I entered a juried show a few years ago. It was all mediums and combinations thereof...........the winner was a little ratty wooden box painted blue, with a cardboard cutout of a roosters head glued into it and two marbles rolling around in the box. It was called "Cock and Balls"..........so, the next year, we both, just for a lark, entered something really stupid. I took a canvas and squeezed out a bunch of different greens on it, covered it with saran wrap, squooshed it around and peeled the saran wrap off. I called it "Swamp" and I got second prize..........it must have taken me all of five minutes........
Cathy

[desertrat]

Nadj Al Nur, on 04 November 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

But Lorriee.....I betcha a nickle that if they entered their "fish" in a juried show, the judges would pin them too...............
A friend and I entered a juried show a few years ago. It was all mediums and combinations thereof...........the winner was a little ratty wooden box painted blue, with a cardboard cutout of a roosters head glued into it and two marbles rolling around in the box. It was called "Cock and Balls"..........so, the next year, we both, just for a lark, entered something really stupid. I took a canvas and squeezed out a bunch of different greens on it, covered it with saran wrap, squooshed it around and peeled the saran wrap off. I called it "Swamp" and I got second prize..........it must have taken me all of five minutes........
Cathy

ANDY WARHOL RIDES AGAIN!

[Kat]

This is a great post Lorriee and the photos of Nazeer is my kind of horse, I call that a perfect classic stallion.
To Jennette, what a sad ending to a very nice colt, so sorry for your loss!!!!  I do not post much but love to read and
learn I have always been more of the hands on-in the barn gal.  I live in MN and at one time lived between Mid-
West 1 and 11, Shada Arabian Sanction, Mike Neil, Arbuckle, Cedar Ridge and ect.  I was fortunate to see some
great stallion and some not so.  I was told how I should breed and shunned from people I thought were my friends
when I did not follow their advice.   I took 2 friends from work to the Fall Feast and was approached by the stallion
owner of a stallion I was breeding to the following year (fees already paid),  She said 'I can not believe you paid
money for the ugliest mare I have ever seen"   Well 2 years later after VO Mabuffa took champion yearling filly AOTS
out of 10 fillies, we flew out of that arena on a magic carpet ride and was greeted again by stallion owner, this time
she said I had bred a nice filly.   There were hardly any Egyptian farms here to visit so I did a lot traveling.   I do not
follow trends and fads, I look the horses body over and imagine a saddle on him or her and their way of going.
AK Najib Pasha was my first stallion to own, he was a dream to ride and close to that perfect 10.  I have taken a lot
of criticism on why I have gelded some colts.  I want it all in a stallion but my tops is athletic ability if he can not move
what kind of a ride will that be.  I spent good money on a breeding, we showed him as a yearling at the EE, he went
top 10, got him home and he turned to the dark side, a viper, to say the least.  So I let Satan stay a colt until he turned
4 then I made the joyful decision to geld Diablo, I had heavy protest from family and friends, his dad was exported
and barely any get in the states.  He was nice and he could move but as a responsible breeder I could not sell him
the way he was.  Now Kahhil is the most exotic horse here but he is my lover boy and happy, he will make a great ride!!  
I believe breeding is a learning process and try to learn more with very breeding season.  Fads come and go but even
in a bad market quality has a place.
Kathy

[Marilee]

I remember talking to you a long time ago about your horse. I got to see AK Shah Moniet in Scottsdale under saddle in English Pleasure when he was very young (early 80s), and he had exceptional movement. The pedigree of your AK Najib Pasha is wonderful. I wish I could have seen him. The photos I've seen are super. Most of the breeders I really admire only have produced a few foals over many years, as they are very particular about what they produce and where those babies/get/produce go, instead of mass-producing with no worries about their future or who is doing what with them. To me that is one characteristic of a great breeder---to have a conscience about what they are doing and what they are producing, and how those horses will end up.

[diane]

LMG, on 30 October 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

I asked this question elsewhere and received no response.  So I will try it here.

What if, the Egyptian Agricultural Society had decided that when they had a plethora of colts, that they would have just gelded them, rather then held on to them for awhile or send them to outlying breeding stations, they instead said:  "That colt, Nazeer, we have a bunch like him, and we still have the sire, so let's geld him and wait to see what better comes along."  There would have been a lot of sorry (whatevers) here in the U.S. who would not have had the Thunderbolt the Wondercolt of the Ages, to hang their hats and futures on, nor would have Poland, and Russia and Germany, and on and on and on.

While it is not likely that some small breeder somewhere will produce the next Nazeer, or *Bask, or Skowronek or ___________, (fill in the blank), it is possible if they used intelligence, and time and research (not just on paper, but by going over the mountain to see what there is to see) it is also not impossible that they just might produce the colt which will set the next standard for this breed.

Lorriee

just about finished reading Derry's "Bred for Perfection".  Disappointed - yes, BUT the interesting part is in the beginning of the book!  The foundations... Bakewellian Principle... westerners (plus those that they have influenced) are guilty - no exceptions.  The pages about Arabians are fascinating enough though maybe the title of the book is tongue in check.  The book suggests we need to come to terms with the results of the boom period (having bred over 500,000 in the US by 1994 aided by the tax concession law(s)) by having to not only look at the horse but also understand the horse in terms of it being a horse in the first place.  The horse, albeit an Arabian, is a luxury.  

What if... I (along with others) had the resources (money, humanoids, facilities etc) of the EAO and could send colts out to grow and not be used until somebody else reviews them and says how nice it would be to use them, particularly over such a large number of mares which are not related too close up by pedigree.  Nice thought but not practical for a smaller sized breeder ~ organisations / societies / conglomerates will always have the edge.  Not only, in my situation, but most likely in everyone else's reading this forum where colts are bred from a small selection of mare(s), retaining their colts for self, one is going to take selves into the depths of inbreeding very quickly!  Pass them around, you suggest, even if you don't sell them... loan/lease, non-financial?  There are those who speak/write the words uttering such things as promoting the older, unshown, unfashionable - you know, whatever - but don't want to look at anything that isn't the be-all/end-all of breeding that will make them an instant success and be able to keep up with "the Jones" - you know, the ones that must be followed.  

It really isn't about preserving the breed as bred by the original creators any more and for that we have Mr Robert Bakewell to thank for that.  Jeeze, it's good someone has a big enough chest to pin this medal on!  The "next standard..." it's fascinating that the original hasn't been accepted for what it was... how about promoting that concept?  Perhaps then there will be no need for the next one and only.  May even take the edge off the need to ET and AI etc, eee gads, there's something to think about.  We've seen via Mr Bakewell's principles that the original, even when seen in context with its owners, region and culture was never really accepted for what they were.  Isn't it time for this to happen?

:th_thparty0036:you're thread, Lorriee is well timed, having gelded my delightful 4yo sE because, but not limited to the fact, he's out of linebred parents and should I wish to continue breeding, I only have his full and half sisters (don't forget the heavily linebred part of the pedigree before the inbreeding part!)  Needless to say, he will be an extremely delightful athletic Arabian plus he gets bonus of eating the lushly grassed lane-ways   Regrets non at all... those that have seen him and, more so, seen him as a horse, are in awe of him, compliments abound.  Now, his future is unlimited.   AND I'm stuck inside because I've castrated my gorgeous Golden Retriever (making sure his bucketed-head doesn't get stuck anywhere) because he has an inheritable concern that he will still have to deal with until his demise, that I wasn't warned of when purchasing him as a breeding dog from a vet (, thank goodness he and his partner aren't locals!) and a concern that I didn't know was in this breed. Dig deep enough and one can find information / data but it's not readily available I for one will not allow this concern to be passed on.  Plus the Whippet did his offside cruciate ligament.  So it's time to read at the moment with so many things that need to be done outside!  Urrrgggghhh.

[diane]

Morabene, on 03 November 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

<snipped> Go look at Nazeer's photos, if he was born in your barn would you know it? He does not have the cute dished in head. He has a nice straight profile that is very breedy and dry. He's not the little doll faced horses who are popular now. He has a long clean neck that is well set. Lovely laid back shoulders with withers. Real withers a smooth topline that is not created by fat. Nice hip, etc. Most of the foundation stock was not what is being bred for today so I doubt he would have made it to 2 before being cut in today's breeding farms . . . unless someone was breeding for performance. I've attached a photo of him in racing condition. Not what I'm seeing in the showring or hottly advertised. But I'm sure the genetics are still lurking out there. But I don't see it in the showring real often any more. it use to be common but we've moved away from this conformation.

worthy of repeating.