185 replies to this topic

[JFerriss]

Since this was a popular thread in the past and I am not competent enough to know how to search for it to "bump" it up, I decided to just restart the subject here.

Attached is my submission for the "guess the mystery horse" series.

This is an ancestral mare and a lovely one at that. She is of a rare strain but still has a tail female family in America and in some other countries.

 56.jpg   65.74K   11 downloads

[Ray]

The neck set reminds me of some of the Abayyan horses.

[JFerriss]

This one however is not Abayyan. Another clue. This horse is sired by a much admired stallion in Egypt who was beautiful even in his old age.

[Ray]

OK - another guess then, mostly in the dark.  Bint Folla, a Shuweymah Sabbah by Hamdan?  I think I see some Bint Radia in that nose...

[JFerriss]

Ray, on 15 December 2011 - 01:05 AM, said:

OK - another guess then, mostly in the dark.  Bint Folla, a Shuweymah Sabbah by Hamdan?  I think I see some Bint Radia in that nose...

you are sharp Ray. But only part right. Not Bint Folla. This mare has the Roman numeral II in her name.

[desertrat]

Is it Dahma II?

[JFerriss]

desertrat, on 15 December 2011 - 02:02 AM, said:

Is it Dahma II?

Nice try but it is not. Dahma II was a chestnut mare. Another clue, this mare is from the second oldest sire line in Egyptian breeding. For any of you who have bought the current Reference Handbook of Straight Egyptian horses Volume 12, you could figure this out from the charts and info in that book.

[desertrat]

JFerriss, on 15 December 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

desertrat, on 15 December 2011 - 02:02 AM, said:

Is it Dahma II?

Nice try but it is not. Dahma II was a chestnut mare. Another clue, this mare is from the second oldest sire line in Egyptian breeding. For any of you who have bought the current Reference Handbook of Straight Egyptian horses Volume 12, you could figure this out from the charts and info in that book.

Well, I guess I will be buying another book. Tee, Hee!

[Ray]

Well, if Hamdan is the correct sire and it's not Bint Folla, maybe it is her full sister, Bint Folla II.  Otherwise, it might be Bint Futna II - she was a Kuhaylah Halawiyah.

[JFerriss]

Ray, on 15 December 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

Well, if Hamdan is the correct sire and it's not Bint Folla, maybe it is her full sister, Bint Folla II.  Otherwise, it might be Bint Futna II - she was a Kuhaylah Halawiyah.

You guessed it Ray!!
Since this mare is not Shuwaymah Sabbah, your second guess is correct. This is Bint Futna II of the Kuhaylah Halawiyah strain. She has a family in the US as well as internationally. Bint Futna II's granddaughter *Fahda (Karoon x Faten) was imported to the U.S. *Fahda's granddaughter, Rowayah (MFA Mareekh Amir x BFA Shamraq) won 2005 Israel Reserve National Champion mare. *Fahda has several other daughters in the U.S. who also have daughters and sons. *Fahda's half sister *Bint Fatin (Emad x Faten) was also imported to the U.S. And Faten left a daughter in Egypt who has a family via Khelaweyah (x Adwy).

[Ray]

I got lucky, Joe.    Well, I'll give this a try, but with the disclaimer that I don't have much to stump with and the photo might be well known.

This mare was imported to the US in 1946.  Her sire was a successful racer and his offspring have produced many fast, athletic horses.

 mysterymare.jpg   20.34K   8 downloads

[JFerriss]

Ray, on 16 December 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

I got lucky, Joe.    Well, I'll give this a try, but with the disclaimer that I don't have much to stump with and the photo might be well known.

This mare was imported to the US in 1946.  Her sire was a successful racer and his offspring have produced many fast, athletic horses.

mysterymare.jpg

Would this be the mare *Mamdouha imported by Dan Gainey?

[hansi]

dear Ray and Joe

Yes, those "Tahawi" horses for certain are excellent racers. I have come across hundreds produced through the Hamdan Stable mares, internationally. Everytime I see either in a pedigree, I feel they are also very beautiful.
the photos seldom do them justice. But look at that baby at side, how strong it stands on his legs alrerady. Cant be more than a few days old.

the Tahawis say now, that they still have these super horses and we must try our best to get ALL REGISTERED AND ACCEPTED. We cant afford losing these bloodlines.

Take care
hansi

,

[Ray]

JFerriss, on 16 December 2011 - 04:08 AM, said:

Ray, on 16 December 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

I got lucky, Joe.    Well, I'll give this a try, but with the disclaimer that I don't have much to stump with and the photo might be well known.

This mare was imported to the US in 1946.  Her sire was a successful racer and his offspring have produced many fast, athletic horses.

mysterymare.jpg

Would this be the mare *Mamdouha imported by Dan Gainey?

Yes, this is *Mamdouha (Kheir x Samha).  The foal is *Gamila by Enzahi.  Kheir was the sire of other notable horses, such as Malaka, Gassir and Maysouna.  I don't have much background data on *Mamdouha - perhaps you have more to share?

[JFerriss]

okay here is some more about *Mamdouha and her daughter *Gamila:

*Mamdouha is a granddaughter of Bint Samiha who produced Nazeer. She did not produce any foals in Egypt and was imported by Dan Gainey to America in 1947 as a 7 year old mare. She was in foal at the time to the Egyptian stallion Enzahi (Nabras x Fardous). Enzahi is also known as  the sire of the South African Egyptian import Nabila, and the US imported stallion *Moftakhar (x Kateefa) who was an early sire at Gleannloch. *Mamdouha did produce one Egyptian foal for Dan Gainey by Mr. Babson's Fay El Dine but the colt, Gayour did not breed on. The rest of her foals were by Gainey-bred Crabbet stallions until she was exported along with the Kellogg bred stallion Rabiyas to South Africa where she produced 4 more foals. So *Mamdouha's only Egyptian foal to breed on was her in-utero filly *Gamila who ended up at Anchor Hill Ranch were she began an influential family through her daughters by the Babson stallion Hadbah (Fabah x Fa Deene). Many from *Gamila's female line were bred at Glorieta Ranch, some of these are very respected in the Arabian Gulf now.  It is interesting to note that while *Mamdouha and her daughter were lost to Egypt, that blood returned to Egypt via Mila Khamis when, for her Bebo Stud, she imported Ali Zafir (Ruminaja Ali x Glorieta Zaafira) who is tail female *Gamila. So *Gamila's line is found internationally now.

*Gamila is also key in the Hadban Enzahi Sheykh Obeyd lines and there is a great series of great articles by Kimberly Nelson on this branch of the Hadbans in Khamsat Magazines Vol. 25 no. 1 through Vol. 26 no. 1, I believe. These are probably still available from the AK Business office.

All of the above is about straight Egyptian breeding but let's not forget that Gamila made an important Al Khamsa contribution in combined source breeding from Gladys Ann Nolan's breeding program. She owned the combined source *Moftakhar son Zarhar (x Zarieha) and she also owned *Gamila's straight Egyptian daughter Anchor Hill Hamila (x Hadbah). I saw some of these horses and they were of very impressive high quality. For Anchor Hill Ranch, Anchor Hill Bint Gamila (Hadbah x *Gamila) produced renowned South African National Champion Anchor Hill Omar (x Char Echo), a straight Egyptian stallion, but she also was also bred to the Egyptian-Turfa Blue Star stallion Ibn Sirecho producing Anchor Hill Gamil who was a performance winner and also a sire in combined source Al Khamsa lines. Anchor Hill Gamil was used considerably in his era for a small breeder siring 58 foals. Anchor Hill Gamil's daughter Anchor Hill Gayla (x Serida) was a foundation mare for Lorriee Golanty. It is interesting to note that both Gladys Ann Nolan and the Atkinsons of Anchor Hill Ranch, who bred quality horses, bred some combined source Al Khamsa lines by using combined source stallions on straight Egyptian mares despite the popularity of the SEs by then. These were very good horses indeed.

--JOe Ferriss

[Ray]

Thanks Joe!  Great background info.  When I saw in Datasource that both *Gamila and *Moftakhar were sired by Enzahi and born just a year apart, I became curious about the possiblity that Doug Marshall saw *Gamila with Gainey before he imported *Moftakhar and if so, did she influence his decision?

[JFerriss]

Not sure that Doug Marshall was influenced by *Gamila because he is not the importer of *Moftakhar who was imported by Charles Votey in 1951 about eleven years before the first Gleannloch Egyptian imports. The Datasource online is in error for not listing Votey as the first owner [importer]. Interestingly the first foals by *Moftakhar were bred by Dr. Krausnick.

[JFerriss]

...while we are on the subject of Egyptian stallions imported before 1958, any guesses as to this mystery stallion who is royally bred or at least royally owned?

 F.jpg   64.68K   5 downloads

[Juniper]

Fadell?

[JFerriss]

Hi Christine,
It is Fadell, guess I can't fool you. You know this horse well since you have him in your pedigrees and or photographed a lot of his descendants. He was imported about 1951 by Queen Nazli [mother of King Farouk] to the U.S. [California] and gifted to Dr. Godward. He is by Kheir [sire of Mamddouha above] and out of Bint Radia, the dam of Hamdan and Shaloul among others. I was told that he was not registered until later, by Trudy Mangels who had a daughter of his out of Fay.