Jump to content


Photo

Were All Three Abu Argub The Same?


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Nostalgia

Nostalgia

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts

Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

I'm new to the site, and came here as I figured some of the active members are among the world's true pedigree experts. Now I am hoping that some of you can shed light on documents verifying that the three stallions Abu Argub, Abu Argub II and Abu Argub III were actually the same individual.

*Abu Argub (DB) referred to as the sire of Athos (PL) by Lukomski according to Guttmann, but that was corrected to Abu Argub II in the 1936 PASB studbook (vol. I). The latter book also contains reference to get by Abu Argub (DB) (i.e. without the II suffix). These get were born 1893-1903 at Chrestowka, Antoniny and Gumniska (all studs owned by the Sanguszko/Potocki family).

*Abu Argub II (DB) a bay born 1883, imp. to Poland (bought 07/06/1890 by Prince Sanguszko from a Turk in Warzaw). There is some information circulating that he was a hamdani, but I cannot remember the source (I may have it somewhere in my archive). Also referred to as Abu Argub (see comment above). I wonder if it was Skorkowski that added the II suffix, and if so, why?

*Abu Argub III (DB), according to the Romanian Stud Book (as quoted in B. Fahlgren 1991) imported to Hungary in 1897 by M. Fadlallah el Hedad on his buying mission for Babolna to Syria. However, Raswan refers to this horse as being imported to Antoniny in 1895 (from Constantinople). I am only aware of one progeny by the "III", a stallion Hamdani-Semri born 1890 out of a desert bred (and used at stud at Babolna 1902-1903). This covering must have occured in the desert. I don't have the Romanian Stud books, and I am not sure which source first added the III prefix. It is possible that no Abu Argub was imported to HU, but rather that it was this son of his that was imported (i.e. in the 1897 importation by el Hedad).

A follow-up question is if the Hamdani Semri used at Gorazdi (now in Bosnia) (1897-1903) is the same individual as this son by Abu Argub III.
My main interest here: breed history, pedigree research and phenotypic preservation of the Arabian Horse.

#2 Nadj Al Nur

Nadj Al Nur

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,259 posts
  • Location:Prince George, B.C.
  • Interests:Horses
    Art (painting and teaching)
    Writing

Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:50 PM

I have the 1972 edition of the Polish Studbooks and all three are listed separately.
In vol I. On page 168 Abu Argub (or. ar.) is listed as the sire of Polenta 1895 (Chresttowka)
On page 104,Abu Argub II (or. ar. ) is listed as the sire of Athos 1899 ( Antoniny )
On page 127, Abu Argub III (or. ar.) is listed as the sire of Hamdani Semri 1890. This Hamdani Semri is the sire of 42 Hamdani Semri 1903 ( Babolna)

Rozwadosky also lists Abu Argub II O.ar. as the sire of Athos and says he was imported to Antoniny.

That's all I could find at present.........

Posted Image


#3 Ray

Ray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,342 posts
  • Location:Nampa, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Arabian horses. Breeding Straight Egyptian, Classical Spanish and Golden Cross.

Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

Interesting. Here are some things I found.

There are 5 references to Abu-Argub in Andrew Steen’s book, "The Man Who Bred Skowronek". Steen has used Lukomski extensively, as anyone must. None of the references include suffixes to the name Abu-Argub. However, it seems that there were two horses named Abu-Argub. One used during the 1860's and the other used during the late 1890's to early 1900's.

The first reference places an Abu-Argub at Slawuta, and is worded in a way that is open to interpretation. "Another desertbred import known as Koheilan-Gidran was procured from a Turk in Warsaw in 1890 and in the same year Abu-Argub also began his career at stud and was used until 1901. Thereafter he was sent to Gumniska where he sired get that were excellent in type and class" (page 45). It would appear that this Koheilan-Gidran was named Abu-Argub, and we are not reading about two different horses.

The third reference is a list by Lukomski titled, "Gumniska’s Studbook". We find for the year 1860, the note is that Abu-Argub "was used on five out of a total of twenty-nine mares" (page 51). This Abu-Argub is obviously a different horse from the first-mentioned Abu-Argub. This "1860’s" Abu-Argub must be one of the four stallions brought back by Sanguszko’s (the elder) agents on the 1857 expedition to Arabia and was probably the one called Koheilan-Abu, who was a gray with black mane and tail.

In reviewing the material for the period, I also noted a stallion named Aghil-Aga, who left sons named Aghil-Aga II and Aghil-Aga III. Aghil-Aga was a bay, imported from Syria in 1857 by Colonel Rudolf von Brudermann and purchased by Prince Sanguszko (Roman, the younger) in 1866 from Babolna. I wonder if there is some confusion between Abu-Argub and Aghil-Aga?

#4 Nadj Al Nur

Nadj Al Nur

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,259 posts
  • Location:Prince George, B.C.
  • Interests:Horses
    Art (painting and teaching)
    Writing

Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:18 PM

I don't think so Ray. Vol I of the Polish studbook lists Aghil-Aga or. ar (no date) as being the sire of Aghil-Aga 1881 (Chrestowka) who was in turn, the sire of Aghil-Aga I 1905 ( Jablonow)

Posted Image


#5 Ray

Ray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,342 posts
  • Location:Nampa, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Arabian horses. Breeding Straight Egyptian, Classical Spanish and Golden Cross.

Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:37 PM

In another reference (Steen book) we find: "In his stead (Muzafer-Pasza) the dark-brown desertbred Abu-Argub, came (to Gumniska) for two years. He sired four males and seven females. (some text deleted)… Abu-Argub was returned to Slawuta in 1903" (page 53). This according to Lukomski, I think. So this horse is dark brown, not bay. It would appear that the earlier Abu-Argub (used 1860-ish) has no remaining bloodlines. In another note is reference to the post-war Gumniska (1901-1984), with mention that the stud’s recovery efforts included special mares from the old lines – one of those was Jerychonka (Nizam ex Chluba by Abu-Argub DB), chestnut (page 105).

#6 hansi

hansi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:Hawthorne,fl,USA
  • Interests:straight egyptian arabian horse breeder since 1967.
    researcher, author of 24 book puplications on arabian horses, the straight egyptian index and others,
    quarantine staton and manager okayed by florida depeartment of agriculture.

Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

In another reference (Steen book) we find: "In his stead (Muzafer-Pasza) the dark-brown desertbred Abu-Argub, came (to Gumniska) for two years. He sired four males and seven females. (some text deleted)… Abu-Argub was returned to Slawuta in 1903" (page 53). This according to Lukomski, I think. So this horse is dark brown, not bay. It would appear that the earlier Abu-Argub (used 1860-ish) has no remaining bloodlines. In another note is reference to the post-war Gumniska (1901-1984), with mention that the stud’s recovery efforts included special mares from the old lines – one of those was Jerychonka (Nizam ex Chluba by Abu-Argub DB), chestnut (page 105).



You are correct Ray.

Hansi
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



Posted Image


#7 Nostalgia

Nostalgia

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

Thank you all for bringing forth more information :).

Hansi, I recall you have researched the pedigree of Hamdani-Semri I-9 (born 1905 in HU, ex. ARG) - if you have it readily available I would be very grateful if you can tell me any details you know about his tail male line.
My main interest here: breed history, pedigree research and phenotypic preservation of the Arabian Horse.

#8 hansi

hansi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:Hawthorne,fl,USA
  • Interests:straight egyptian arabian horse breeder since 1967.
    researcher, author of 24 book puplications on arabian horses, the straight egyptian index and others,
    quarantine staton and manager okayed by florida depeartment of agriculture.

Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:15 PM

Thank you all for bringing forth more information :). Hansi, I recall you have researched the pedigree of Hamdani-Semri I-9 (born 1905 in HU, ex. ARG) - if you have it readily available I would be very grateful if you can tell me any details you know about his tail male line.


Acutally, would have liked to give it you privately, but here it is.

Hamdani-Semri I-9 (1905) is partbred. His sire Hamdani Semri I (1899) Partbred is by
Hamdani Semri (1890) (Asil) out of 38 Schagya X (1893), goes back to the Warmblood
24 savory (1864)

Should also mention that he carries Nonius XX (1829) who is by the warmblood Nonius VIII (1820) out of the Lippizan mare 604 Montedore (1822) all bred by Babolna,Hungary Nonius XX (1829) is by the warmblood Nonius VIII (1820) who is by the Anglonormandi
Nonius (1810). Actually most of Hamdani Semri I-9 is made up with partbreds, Lippizan, Nonius, Normandi Warmbloods, Engl. Thoroughbred, Anglos, etc.etc.

Hamdani-Semri I-9 also carried "Zarif I (1877) an Anglo-Arab and that goes to the Partbred 50 Gidran XXXII (1871) line. she is by 216 Chief Justice (1866) Anglo Arab and his sire is Chief Justice XX (1847) an engl;ish thoroughbred who is out of the Lawyer's Lady XX (c.1843), who is by Persion Tb x Mare by Phanton & filagree (1820) TB. I got another 20 generation of those.

In any case the horse carries the partbred Shagya, Zarif I and Gidran and what I stated above. All horses I stated are recorded, Radautz herdbook.

MInd you, all top horses according to records.

enjoy
Hansi
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



Posted Image


#9 Nostalgia

Nostalgia

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:52 AM

Thank you very much! These questions came up as I am doing some statistics on the number of extinct sirelines (how many were there, how long did they breed on etc.). Of course there are few of the allegedly double identities that we can detangle by fact, but the process of making assumptions often turns out to be educational still :).

Ray, are you in possession of more work by Lukomski than what is given in "Das arabische Pferd in Slawuta und anderen Gestüten des südwestlichen Rußlands" (Stuttgart 1906, I suppose you have the 1979 reprint)?
  • M Huprich likes this
My main interest here: breed history, pedigree research and phenotypic preservation of the Arabian Horse.

#10 hansi

hansi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:Hawthorne,fl,USA
  • Interests:straight egyptian arabian horse breeder since 1967.
    researcher, author of 24 book puplications on arabian horses, the straight egyptian index and others,
    quarantine staton and manager okayed by florida depeartment of agriculture.

Posted 09 April 2012 - 01:20 PM

Thank you very much! These questions came up as I am doing some statistics on the number of extinct sirelines (how many were there, how long did they breed on etc.). Of course there are few of the allegedly double identities that we can detangle by fact, but the process of making assumptions often turns out to be educational still :). Ray, are you in possession of more work by Lukomski than what is given in "Das arabische Pferd in Slawuta und anderen Gestüten des südwestlichen Rußlands" (Stuttgart 1906, I suppose you have the 1979 reprint)?



Nostalgia

you are correct, some folks go by assumptions, and when you give them recorded facts they bash you, fight you, call you rude and the likes. Many researchers have recorded facts, meaning they can quote the listing of either stud or herdbooks or the like.

Some of us stated before that possibly no more than five percent of all recorded Arabian are "Asil" while the balance carries all sorts of foreign breeds, from Lippizans, many types of Warmbloods, Barbs, Andalusians, Anglos, TBs,
etc, as you can see in the horse I gave you data.

Sometimes you hear "those Asils -how do they know they are pure- etc". Well it is often by folks who never went abroad and had contact with Bedu Tribes/Clans. While indeed shady things could have occurred through "dealers"-not with the tribes.
I dont believe such was done within the tribes/clans. Knowing foreign History also helps, as one can quickly determine if a European Breeding for instance is okay or not, going far back of course. But this is often the problem here when even a former President said " Bejing is in Argentina"- over Tv, and the Germans put it in their newspaper saying" We will send Mr Bush an Atlas for Xmas." I was already in Highschool taught of the Northamerican Continent, and of course the rest of the World.

And of course "translation" or who we like or dislike can make a difference, so can "cultures", the latter one truly should learn to understand and respect.
Its like wanting the Islamic Religion/culture to change to our Western world, which is just about as impossible as throwing single handed a twenty ton rock, and also very dangerous to interfere. Therefore, I feel that we can trust the word of the tribes/clans as they will not use foreign blood, have history of breeding thousands of years old. But make no mistakes, it takes years before trust by them for us is made, and their politness,charm and hospitality should never be misunderstood either.
This is why I often warned, dont wash your dirty linen in public, be disrespectful and political, it is read and never forgotten internationaly.

To preserve, we truly must think of what we are preserving, as the Bedus still do or the countries/areas which have to use horses to sustain. that means we have to test, as it was done thousands of years ago.and only from those which could stand the muster, bred from. When you study the pedigree of the horse I gave you data on, you will find that those recorded in their pedigree
were tested and some excellent individuals produced, for war,farm work, sport etc.etc.. This can never change, unless we have vehicles which can plow and handle mountanous terrain, like in South America etc. As I said before, what one does not put in, one cant get out. Horse breeding is NOT for the faint hearted and takes enormous investment as well as knowledge.Latter can be taught..

Take care and have a great day
Hansi



.
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



Posted Image


#11 Ray

Ray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,342 posts
  • Location:Nampa, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Arabian horses. Breeding Straight Egyptian, Classical Spanish and Golden Cross.

Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:56 PM

Thank you very much! These questions came up as I am doing some statistics on the number of extinct sirelines (how many were there, how long did they breed on etc.). Of course there are few of the allegedly double identities that we can detangle by fact, but the process of making assumptions often turns out to be educational still :).

Ray, are you in possession of more work by Lukomski than what is given in "Das arabische Pferd in Slawuta und anderen Gestüten des südwestlichen Rußlands" (Stuttgart 1906, I suppose you have the 1979 reprint)?


No, I don't have works by Lukomski. The volume you mention was used by Steen in writing his book. Which means information given by me is 3rd hand.

#12 M Huprich

M Huprich

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,066 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:11 PM

In another reference (Steen book) we find: "In his stead (Muzafer-Pasza) the dark-brown desertbred Abu-Argub, came (to Gumniska) for two years. He sired four males and seven females. (some text deleted)… Abu-Argub was returned to Slawuta in 1903" (page 53). This according to Lukomski, I think. So this horse is dark brown, not bay. It would appear that the earlier Abu-Argub (used 1860-ish) has no remaining bloodlines. In another note is reference to the post-war Gumniska (1901-1984), with mention that the stud’s recovery efforts included special mares from the old lines – one of those was Jerychonka (Nizam ex Chluba by Abu-Argub DB), chestnut (page 105).


What's the name of this book? Andrew has done several.

#13 hansi

hansi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:Hawthorne,fl,USA
  • Interests:straight egyptian arabian horse breeder since 1967.
    researcher, author of 24 book puplications on arabian horses, the straight egyptian index and others,
    quarantine staton and manager okayed by florida depeartment of agriculture.

Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:32 PM

In another reference (Steen book) we find: "In his stead (Muzafer-Pasza) the dark-brown desertbred Abu-Argub, came (to Gumniska) for two years. He sired four males and seven females. (some text deleted)… Abu-Argub was returned to Slawuta in 1903" (page 53). This according to Lukomski, I think. So this horse is dark brown, not bay. It would appear that the earlier Abu-Argub (used 1860-ish) has no remaining bloodlines. In another note is reference to the post-war Gumniska (1901-1984), with mention that the stud’s recovery efforts included special mares from the old lines – one of those was Jerychonka (Nizam ex Chluba by Abu-Argub DB), chestnut (page 105).


Ray, Jerychonka carries "Zboj" (c.1810) a Turkmone- no parents known either.
Bought in Dubno by Prince E Sanguszko in 1913.
If someone out there has more data on Zboj, I would appreciate this.

Hansi
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



Posted Image


#14 Ray

Ray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,342 posts
  • Location:Nampa, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Arabian horses. Breeding Straight Egyptian, Classical Spanish and Golden Cross.

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:02 PM

What's the name of this book? Andrew has done several.


Sorry - the same book I mentioned earlier - "The Man Who Bred Skowronek".

#15 M Huprich

M Huprich

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,066 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:26 PM

Thanks Ray

#16 desertrat

desertrat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 641 posts
  • Interests:Arabian Horses,Bridle Horses, Art, History of all sorts, Film, Music, Drama, Dance, and Literature.

Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

From Neil L. Wood"The Polish Arabian Horse In North America" 1937-1991. p.24. "Abu Argub II- The progenitor to this line was a bay, purchased as aseven year old in Warsaw from a Turk, by Prince Roman Sanguszko. The line of Abu Argub II is not represented today at the Polish State Studs, but can be found in the pedigrees of many of the more important mares who trace to Rozmaryn (Almanzor x Dziewanna)

p.54
Abu Argub II--Origional Arab sired Athos 1899 B

p.78

From the Kuhailan Zaid sire line-
Kuhailan Abu Urkub 1935 B

Just another source for your consideration.

#17 Ray

Ray

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,342 posts
  • Location:Nampa, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Arabian horses. Breeding Straight Egyptian, Classical Spanish and Golden Cross.

Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:18 AM

From Neil L. Wood"The Polish Arabian Horse In North America" 1937-1991. p.24. "Abu Argub II- The progenitor to this line was a bay, purchased as aseven year old in Warsaw from a Turk, by Prince Roman Sanguszko. The line of Abu Argub II is not represented today at the Polish State Studs, but can be found in the pedigrees of many of the more important mares who trace to Rozmaryn (Almanzor x Dziewanna)

p.54
Abu Argub II--Origional Arab sired Athos 1899 B

p.78

From the Kuhailan Zaid sire line-
Kuhailan Abu Urkub 1935 B

Just another source for your consideration.


Well, unless Steen grossly misquoted Lukomski, Neil Wood IS confused, just as I mentioned earlier, between the two horses, Abu-Argub and Aghil-Aga. Abu-Argub was a DARK BROWN desertbred. Aghil-Aga was the bay from Syria - the progenitor to Aghil_Aga II and Aghil-Aga III. Perhaps it will remain a mystery.

#18 hansi

hansi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,786 posts
  • Location:Hawthorne,fl,USA
  • Interests:straight egyptian arabian horse breeder since 1967.
    researcher, author of 24 book puplications on arabian horses, the straight egyptian index and others,
    quarantine staton and manager okayed by florida depeartment of agriculture.

Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Well, unless Steen grossly misquoted Lukomski, Neil Wood IS confused, just as I mentioned earlier, between the two horses, Abu-Argub and Aghil-Aga. Abu-Argub was a DARK BROWN desertbred. Aghil-Aga was the bay from Syria - the progenitor to Aghil_Aga II and Aghil-Aga III. Perhaps it will remain a mystery.


Again Ray, you are correct.


Hansi
Hansi-Heck Melnyk
Serenity Arabian farms, Florida, USA



Posted Image


#19 Nostalgia

Nostalgia

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:17 PM

Well, unless Steen grossly misquoted Lukomski, Neil Wood IS confused, just as I mentioned earlier, between the two horses, Abu-Argub and Aghil-Aga. Abu-Argub was a DARK BROWN desertbred. Aghil-Aga was the bay from Syria - the progenitor to Aghil_Aga II and Aghil-Aga III. Perhaps it will remain a mystery.


I think Wood generally follows the work of B.Fahlgren and E.Skorkowski, and so it follows that Abu-Argub II was a bay born 1873 and purchased in 1890. In Poland the nuances of brown colour bear the same wording (gniady), with prefixes ciemno, skaro etc. In the PASB studbooks colours are abbreviated (like sk.gn.) and therefore easily mistinterpreted. Maybe this applies to the older Polish/Russian sources as well.
My main interest here: breed history, pedigree research and phenotypic preservation of the Arabian Horse.

#20 Nasheeta

Nasheeta

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Interests:www.wolffphotography.nl, war crimes, Desert bred Arabians, Sheykh Obeyd and Babson Arabians.

Posted 05 January 2016 - 11:59 AM

Laiza de Jalima, top endurance mare also carries Abu Argyb, my own two Polish(bred) mares have tail female Koheilah Umm Urqub, special line, it is said to be Jordanian and Syrian bloodline.


Nasheeta Arabians
 

home of
Abu Dhabi (Djinn x Pax), Manara Samira r.i.p. (Masada Massoud x Matara Saafana), Zabira Atya (Ebony Rumaadi x Bach Raisa),
Fadra (Neapolitano XXIX-22 x Maestoso XLVI-3), a), Kuhaylat Imzaa (Antar el Elamal x Impress CS), Shennah BLA (Renoir MBI x Suraha KSI)

Proud owner of miniature mare NOVA stables Carissa (Falabella)

Have a look at www.nasheeta.com

 

and home of

The Samira Foundation, a sacntuary for old, formerly abandonned and abused arabian mares. Currently offering a home to Ber Parabola, Razade des Belles, Sarafeh, Aronda Star r.i.p. , Prinses Dalmea r.i.p., Dizzy Devil, Impress CS and Flaxman's Ophelia. Donations most welcome!

www.facebook.com/stichtingsamira



co-author (with Ms Saskia Klaassen) of "Impressions" a manual to arabian bloodlines in The Netherlands





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users