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Selecting Trainer For Foundation Start Under Saddle


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#1 An American Breeder

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:15 PM

Went hunting for a trainer locally, within 150 miles any direction, and that was an experience. The feedlot cowboy who came up with the "This hear horse is an at-risk hoss" was one never to forget.

Finally found a young woman, common sense, lots of experience about 40 miles from me and sent Buddy to her on May 1st. He will come home on July 20th. The first 30 days was all about walk/trot/canter/whoa with come here in pen, stand for mount/dismount. The next 45 days or so has been repetion of all this over and over. He has his leads now a good 50% of the time; baby steps with not being stressed; getting over fears of being lounged; learning the 'monsters' on his legs would not do him any harm, and a whole lot of general handling that makes for the owners enjoyment, and gratitude -- such as I will need a bucket to stand on to mount as he does have some height, so she has been crawling on him from everything she can find, loading/unloading/riding in the trailer with no hesitation, all those goodies.
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#2 An American Breeder

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:46 PM

Two more photos from the first 30 days, Filling out big time, muscling up, very different look now at 75 days

#3 janessa

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

Sounds like you found yourself a good trainer. He looks great too!!

#4 An American Breeder

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:11 PM

Thank you. Yes, I hunted and hunted. This is all still baby stuff as he was only 36 months in May. Plan, Hope, fingers crossed, to send him back to her for two more months later this fall for more finishing on reining aspects. She does not "finish" the horses from what I gather; she just does one heck of a job on the basic foundation skills.

Planning to send her my late-maturing filly next April as well.

#5 desertrat

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:46 PM

Good for you and your horses! Please keep us posted on your progress!

#6 janessa

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Thats awesome, he looks fabulous for three too!

#7 An American Breeder

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:51 AM

Almost time to come home!
Here's the latest sent to me email:

The usual. Lots of repetition for Mr Buddy.
He's great in the trailer,
getting more consistant on responding to lead cues,
he'll open gates too, though he gets a little nervious about it.

Have been working him in and out of the barditch a lot too, he hates crossing it, mostly he acts like theres something at the bottom of the ditch thats going to get him, but we're working on that 'monster'.

Hes hit and miss on taking the bit. Since hes not refusing all the time, I'd have to say its just a phase of 'cant make me'. Im just paitent with him and once he figures out Im not giving up, he cooperates.

Been working on neck reining a lot in a short shank bristol with a running martingale. Once he wears the intial excitement of doing something off, his head comes down and he carries himself nicely.

I actually have had him 'leading' with out a halter in his pen. It wasnt something I was trying to do with him, but he followed, turned, stopped and backed all on my body language. He had nothing on, no halter or rope. He's really come a long way.
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#8 An American Breeder

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 05:11 PM

Needing to update:

 

Buddy went to a local trainer, Muleshoe, Texas about 30 miles more or less to the north of me.  Professional team roper, professional trainer of roping horses who also will start young horses.  That is unusual today.  The first of April he left and was there for 45 days.  This first session was a surprise both for me and for the horse.  He had a 10 day stay in November, 2012, with a gal who talked great but was not great.  I went and got him and brought him home!  However, Mr. Buddy did not forget a thing from being with her and R E A L L Y challenged Mr. Justin Morris!  That man was of the firm mind he needed to lose those balls! !

 

However, by the end of the 45 days he did come home.  He was ridden and worked in a round pen, which he hates!  He got to accepting it and started to become a "broke" horse.  He got tied after being ridden or before being ridden for hours on end; just learning.  He was in his own pen run (with good shelter) and in no way hurting.  And he learned to as one person said "work through tired."

 

Ohhh was he ecstatic to come home.  Soo much that up in the air he went, twice.  Did not care for that.  Sooo in not too long, 6 weeks later, Justin was supposed to have room/well he really didn't but he never answered my email nor my phone calls so I delivered Mr. Buddy !   Buddy went in the round pen, through the water and suspect he got tied plenty while waiting another horse to go home so he could have a pen!

 

Needless to say Mr. Morris lets me know now!  Well, this second session was 180 degrees the opposite of the first.  He was a "perfect gentleman."  Ridden outside a lot!  And that was in about 10/12 days.  In a halter!  They have the room to ride out and I mean ride out.  When Buddy came home it was in one of those rancher gooseneck trailers and he backed ! out.  This horse now loads either free or tied in any kind of a trailer with no problem; walks in and backs out.  Mr. Morris also walked Buddy back to the horse area of my place and reminded him, just with a halter, just his manner (though he probably does not realize it but when he is correcting, saying Pay Attention his voice does go up a certain notch).  No up in the airs this time.  And he has been a joy to be around.  Can braid his foretop or mane, no funny business of don't like mane pulled on for any reason, no playing games, can go in his pen and do whatever I want anytime. 

 

He also received his first set of shoes the first of May in that first 45 days.  Plain kegs.  $50 and that was it.  No holder fee, no nothing!

 

There was no opening though until this last Thursday.  His wife emailed and we thought he was going to go up for another "brief" reminder and keeping him updated the middle of August, then after Labor Day, but this man is booked. 

 

Will be trying for photos as now he goes to learn to work cattle.  This is it.  Finding out if he has the ability, aptitude and "want to" to go with the really good ranch hand horses or if he will be for playing around with at local fun events.   



#9 VanAlma

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

Love the update! I am casually searching out trainers in the area who work with cattle and Arabians. Might be a future endeavor for Zakhirah. Thanks for sharing. Pics are lovely if you have some :)


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#10 JacqueB

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:54 AM

Love the update! I am casually searching out trainers in the area who work with cattle and Arabians. Might be a future endeavor for Zakhirah. Thanks for sharing. Pics are lovely if you have some :)

Reverence Arabians in TN has a Mishaal HP son, he's still intact I believe & he's in training for reining with a nationally competing trainer who loves him & being successful.  So I think your Zakhirah will do well, too.  Kate, back in my riding days I kinda got to the point that I needed to either get my riding perfected for competing & use somebody else to start my horses or start horses & let someone else get the refinement of riding competitively for the horse.  Riding green horses is defensive riding which is different for what your body needs to do for competitive riding.  I was wondering what you are going to do?  Are you going to continue getting miles on your horses, new situations, relaxation?  Had a discussion the other day with a trainer (foxhunter/hunter-jumper) I respect & her experience & my observation is it's 3 years of regular riding to get a horse to solid undersaddle citizenship on the trail/in groups & in the show ring.  That's a lot of work on your part and then you've got a horse that's 5 or 6 years of age & ready to do whatever the rider's interests are and then the question is, do you get any compensation for that which recognizes the time & skill that got the horse to that dependably serviceable point.  Well I obviously need to go feed the horses, rambling on ....


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#11 VanAlma

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:27 AM

Thanks for the reference in TN. I have looked at trainers in OK but didn't think to look east as it is further, but could be a better option.

As for me? Those are fantastic questions. Just tonight, I was just remarking to myself about the progression of training after an awesome ride on Bubba where we worked on canter departs form the halt (YUP!!! :D ) and he is very "show ready" for HUS or SHUS. I've never had the luxury of not being the person who takes my horse from green to seasoned. It is a completely different kind of ride, I agree, and takes different skills. On one hand, I feel like it keeps me on my toes and, on the other hand, do feel I haven't progressed in my technical riding to get "really good", so to speak. I kind of like feeling the change as they go but also realize my skills haven't progressed greatly since about 15 years ago. I am looking into lessons for that. I soaked up as much as I could from Sharon's daughter, Chrissy, and it helped, but I need so much more.

Specifically, in regards to reining/cattle work, I have NO SKILLS. NONE. I don't even have a western saddle lol. I would be kidding myself if I had any clue of how to even begin aside from bringing her in with my neighbor's cattle and hoping like hell I lived to tell the story. I will probably be the one who breaks her (pride and I'm cheap) and gets her going at least at the walk and trot, but if I'm going to invest in real training, which I have not fully considered at this point, I'll let the trainer do the real training after I've taken care of the very basics. 

As for getting any recognition for the time and effort it takes to get a green horse to know something and do something functional? There is none, but I still enjoy it tremendously :)


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#12 JacqueB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:16 AM

Chrissy having ridden successfully nigh unto FEI eventing would have much to share in riding instruction.  But thinking back on watching a reining champion rider working horses all day in Texas back in early 2000 everything he did was at the canter, walk to canter, stop to canter, rollbacks.  It was such a different style of riding - he could have done it in a english saddle as well as a western, they are all about riding with their seat and soft with hands, really no contact till they are ready to stop. Yep, that would be entirely different than the low level eventing stuff you & I have done.  Stay safe.


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#13 An American Breeder

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:39 AM

Ohhhh they have contact.  Believe me.  And yes, very soft with hands.  And they post at the trot too.  Not everything is done at the gallop (canter). 

 

From the very beginning of training, the method of use the hindquarters, shift the horse's weight back to the rear, the rein-back (back) to make sure the colt understands from the very start to be "catty." 

 

Remember when Gene LaCroix had a seminar and he brought out the old Crabbet park, and I do mean true park, horse he had shown for years.  He offered to let anyone who could stay on him to come ride.  A very well-known western trainer beat everyone over the rail and yes, he could ride that horse at any gait as well as Gene. 

 

A small observation:  Anyone who can teach a canter depart from a stand still is no slouch at training.  Canter from the walk is easier.  Some of these trainers work from the beginning from the walk and some use the trot.  The good ones (trainer) just seem to be whichever style they are comfortable with.



#14 JacqueB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:50 AM

The quarterhorse champion reiner trainer I watched in Texas had a shank to his bits, so he had no contact with his hands til he wanted a stop.  That's in high contrast to a french link loose ring snaffle for a dressage rider where you feel the weight of the horse giving to you in their mouths as they stretch over their top line shifting their weight into their hind quarters.  It could be that reiners start their horses with snaffles and work up to the shank.


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#15 An American Breeder

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:57 AM

Have yet to see any horse with my current trainer in a shank -- he uses snaffles.  Now he is roping and your trainer was in reining.  In Reining there is the Fancy Dan show stop; in roping, ranch work there is the "stick in the ground" stop, no sliding.  This man is much more the dressage rider and so was the young woman who started my colt last year. 

 

Everything with the ones I have selected are for engagement of the hindquarters, nothing on the forehand. 

 

Also in reining, the front end moves with the forelegs crossing over for the spins; that is not used in actually working on the ranch/range, ie ranch sorting.  If your legs are crossed you are not going forward.  In ranch work it is absolutely necessary for the horse to move forward, explosive stops, explosive starts, following the critter  and  great flexation through the body.  Those are things that are taught in the round pen and used when they "ride out."



#16 JacqueB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

Have yet to see any horse with my current trainer in a shank -- he uses snaffles.  Now he is roping and your trainer was in reining.  In Reining there is the Fancy Dan show stop; in roping, ranch work there is the "stick in the ground" stop, no sliding.  This man is much more the dressage rider and so was the young woman who started my colt last year. 

 

Everything with the ones I have selected are for engagement of the hindquarters, nothing on the forehand. 

 

Also in reining, the front end moves with the forelegs crossing over for the spins; that is not used in actually working on the ranch/range, ie ranch sorting.  If your legs are crossed you are not going forward.  In ranch work it is absolutely necessary for the horse to move forward, explosive stops, explosive starts, following the critter  and  great flexation through the body.  Those are things that are taught in the round pen and used when they "ride out."

The reiner trainer I watched for a day was me visiting Texas for business and getting there early and so deciding to spend that time watching a reiner champion - not "my" trainer. 

I haven't seen western riders starting horses, but using snaffles would make sense on the introduction of riding to the horse.

The pictures you put up on the young woman starting your horse shows nothing that works toward dressage.  Her knees are rotated out, dressage riders ride with their thighs rotated in and they are looking for relaxation & quietness - nothing that requires the head to be tied to the chest.

Some of my favorite memories are watching as a kid in Texas horses cutting cattle in competition.  It's amazing.


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#17 An American Breeder

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

Ohhh - okay.  The young woman did NOT have his head tied to the chest.  She was using a German Martingale.  I have used running martingales and believe me, they "tie" a horse's head down in a way that the German Martingale does not.  Basically ALL that the GM did was encourage the horse to flex at the poll.  She rode with almost no bit action and at the end of the time with her she was riding him in a halter as the current trainer has done.  She was ALSO riding him out from Day 2 which means she had no back-up training -- she could not drive him b/c of past handling!  it took her all the time of 85 or whatever days it was to get him to do a basic lounge.  This trainer has gone beyond that but the reason he could force the issue and get beyond those fears is BECAUSE of the work she did.

 

When a person is working a young horse there is not going to be your perfect posture!  Been there on many babies, greenies!  Can't you see how he is striding out, relaxed, responsive, happy? 

 

Why is it people that don't have a background feel they need to attack, rip apart?  I was there.  I was watching.  She did one HELL of a Good job.  Took plenty of guts to go out in the wide open spaces from the get go and teach everything to this young horse. 



#18 JacqueB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

relax, I just said that dressage gets to what the young woman was doing in a different way.  Martingales are an anathema to dressage.  Your use of the term dressage is where I'm trying to redirect your thinking.  You ride or lounge the horse relaxed at a walk and then a trot working toward and get them to relax over the top line, let them drop that head down and use you leg and invite thru engaging contact to pick up that back.  Many trainers get that kind of work done on the ground before they even get on their back.

Think about what she did as what ended up working for y'all.  Just don't think of it in terms of dressage.  You seem to know alot about western riding, stick with that, its good stuff.


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#19 An American Breeder

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

Ahuh

 

Just for the record I spent several months minimum with each learning basics of dressage with 3 trainers.  The first was a professional who took time off to attend college in Salem, Oregon for one year.  Place where she hailed from trained horses for the Olympics/overseas competitions.  She had my horse just learning the piaffe when she left to go back to her old job.

 

The next one was steeped in western and taught the same principles/not quite as good as the first but sufficient.

 

The last one I studied with for about 2 years and he was trained in the Lippizan style of dressage -- he had studied with the masters from overseas. He also had the idea that a horse works for a year at the trot -- not very practical for the everyday person.  But being older by then just let it go, like water on a duck's back.  Absorbed enough he asked me to do the posting and sitting trot, not extended, for his teaching demonstration video.  Must have gotten something from his teaching he liked.

 

My descriptions/wordings may not be the greatest though. And the current trainer uses no martingales but I have also not seen his tack room.  He knew from the first time he got on this horse he did not need one. 



#20 JacqueB

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:44 PM

Sounds like you got exposure to some upper level work, that's exciting to see. 

Did you see any of those trainers start a young horse who had previously not been exposed to work?  Maybe that's where your vocabulary/descriptions give you trouble. 


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