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Starting A Se Small Breeders Association ..thoughts Please


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#1 Jerelkerby

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

I have been approached and asked to 'spearhead' a Straight Egyptian Small Breeders Association. The 'SESBA' would be a ....
1)way to help pool resources
2)trade breedings to stallions to more diversify gene pool with a way of saving money. Instead of breeding all your mares to your stallion and repeating that match-up ....seek to trade breedings with another small breeder.
3)Work on getting better advertising rates as a group. It would probably over all increase advertising as make it more affordable for some.
4)Work on getting one or two 'small breeders' on the board of the PS. This is a whole different ballgame, but I feel as do others that it would help increase membership and diversify PS. DO NOT GET ME WRONG AS I REALLY LIKE THE PS AND I LIKE THE EGYPTIAN EVENT. THE EMPLOYEES DO A FANTASTIC JOB AND THE BOARD MEMBERS DO A GOOD JOB AND I UNDERSTAND FROM WHAT I AM TOLD WORK VERY HARD. However, I know that more parity needs to be attempted and I think it would help and be a win win for PS, current board memebs, current members of PS and hopeful future members of PS.
5)I don't know all the answers; furthermore, I do not even know all the questions, but I think we all must work together and attempt to improve on what we are all doing and what we are all a part of..... we are all a part of Straight Egyptian Arabians, many of us are a proud part of the Pyramid Society and would like to see it grow.
6)I was extremely encouraged (except one incidence when I was told to move and not asked to move because I was occasionally getting in the way of the projector.... my wife Pamela and I arrived a little late and I had major life saving surgery just about two weeks prier and was in a lot of pain and when we got there the only place we noticed right away where we could sit and sit together was at this one table.....I simple moved my chair over about 20 inches, but was later asked by Pam why the person was so rude in telling me to move..not please move over a little, but just you are going to have to move" ........I had no answer, but if I were not in so much pain I would probably stood up and ask "where in the heck do you expect us to sit...we paid to come and you set up the projector and screen and knew how many would be attending...simply I am not used to being blutly talked to like that and do not intend for someone else to think they could speak to me like such......I am just a regular PS member and maybe this person that I actually like felt it O.K. to speak to be bluntly and with no consideration of grace) at this years 'Breeders Conference' sponsored by PS and held at Sandy and Hank Deshazers amazingly beautiful farm and got to see many of their beautiful SE's and SE's that could move and SE's that I bet would do well at anything. I have been 'around' Hank and Sandy for several years, but never had been to their farm or experienced their gracious warmth as hosts. The PS is implementing new rules of judging. They almost to the person made statements to the fact that if PS designated a horse as SE, then it is SE to help put all that nonesense about purity to rest as it should be. They had 2 small breeders get up and talk about their breeding programs and how they were successful. Yes they are working to make some positive changes. I think they listened and are making the show safer for our horses.
7)There is so much more, but I would ask please do not take this as an opportunity to 'knock' the PS and/or board members. They have done much good. Now I did digress to some negativity above, but it dawned on me the level of importance maybe I am held in esteem by this one member of PS, so can't blame everyone....... However, it was certainly food for thought and lit a fire under me to take up the spear and head an organization that would and/or could work towards parity in so many ways besides the strength in numbers.
I AM DEFENDING THE COST OF THE DUES FOR THE PYRAMID SOCIETY AS IT TAKES 'X' AMOUNT OF MONEY TO RUN A BUSINESS AND/OR AN ORGANIZATION SUCH AS PS. EMPLOYEE SALARIES, RENT ON OFFICE, PHONES, PRINTING, UTILITIES AND ON AND ON. Therefore dues have to be set at a level to operate the organization and they still fall short as I am sure we know by the silent auction and the auction at the Gala every year many spend a lot of money to buy donated items to give the money to PS which again is needed for operational expenses. I feel the PS is in a 'catch 22" because if they doubled membership then they could probably decrease dues by not quite one-half (be more members to deal with, more printing, possibly another employeee..so not cut by one-half), but anyway a much reduced rate. If we could help do things to bring back past members who have given up for whatever reason and bring on new members with positive changes.
It was mentioned if I wanted to be on the board then perhaps I should "work to get on the board" I DO NOT WANT TO BE ON THE BOARD! However, the person who said this did not think to think that I spent nearly $70,000.00 on Straight Egyptians.com initially to buy it and initial operating expenses and then I lost $15,000.00 to $20,000.00 per year operating it. I defended PS, PS Board members and did advertising with PS and sponsored with PS on a personal and business level. I want our PS to succeed. PS is the premier organization that actually 'defines' our beloved SE's.... we need them.... or otherwise in many instances no such super organization would stand to say these are SE's not donkeys....PS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Excuse the fragmentation etc. as I am at work and trying to do this piecemeal to get a discussion started.
Ideas please..... if negativety please restrain it in a way that we all acheive a positive outcome..... i.e I do not expect to ever be rudely spoken to at another PS function.... see.... a negative complaint with positive outcome......well then you say how do we all benefit from me not being spoken to or treated that way..... I expect not one member of PS to again be spoken down to........rudely.
Jerel Kerby
P.S. there is more of this discussion started to bring you more up to date on my Facebook ... simple Jerel Kerby on Facebook and I think I am set so public can see my posts.
Good to talk to yall again. I wish you all well ..P.S. members, non-members, Board Members and yes please future members and let us see if we can collectively pull together "Straight Egyptian Small Breeders Association" with mission statements, bylaws etc. We will need attorney(s) accountant(s) to help set up the organization.
If someone besides myself would like to be president please make the case. I almost died this summer. I actually coliced ..intestines twisted and burst and that way 3 days before I made my way to emergency room where the surgeon told me to say goodbye to my wife, my 2 boys and my parents (as they were called in at 1:00AM due to my dire condition) as I would die on the operating table. Then 4 days later the surgeon again told me he thought they would have buried me by then. Therefore, my precious family is more important to me than this getting mired down in trying to improve and help, but I was told by my sons that I needed to do this 'spearhead action as it were' as I have always done and try and do what I taught them and that is "do the right thing and take the right path even if it is longer and more difficult".

#2 An American Breeder

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

Good to talk to yall again. I wish you all well ..P.S. members, non-members, Board Members and yes please future members and let us see if we can collectively pull together "Straight Egyptian Small Breeders Association" with mission statements, bylaws etc. We will need attorney(s) accountant(s) to help set up the organization.

Why? There are plenty of groups/organizations to whom one could/should look and thus aviod that cost.

You are stating objectives, I think.

You might need more of an outline of what your goals are, how the group intends to accomplish such, and costs! Today, costs!!!! are everything for that Small Breeder of any Arabian. JMO

#3 Heidi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

I will certainly help in any capacity I can, I've seen the huge success of our local Weaha club.We hold clinics, farm tours and are looking to add se classes at the local aha shows . At our local fall farm tour we hosted over 100 local people that now have interest in the SE horse.
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BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
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NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
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SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#4 Jerelkerby

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

I am as I said looking for answers, questions and I do not know all of them. Moreover, there is a group in Georgia I believe with Kendra Wells who is having some success organizationally and Heidi's group is doing well. As a matter of fact I am doing very well, but again was asked to 'spearhead' this idea of this organization. You have valid concerns and valid questions, but may I ask are you a member of PS and if not why not. We need more members and of those members we need more representation.
Money is no different than I mentioned as far as running the PS. It would depend on the interest as to how many would want to join and participate. How many would want to join and what would be the "X" factor as far as operating expenses. I would hope very low "X" factor with volunteers doing most of the organizational work. The more members the less the expense and the main expense I would initially think off would be accounting and legal. Again like i said there are several posts on my facebook and can be read there.
It is easy to sit on our hands and do nothing. It is easy to ask a couple of lines on a forum, but to what avail. This will take some dedicated people who want some change. If not then that is O.K. as people will or will not 'speak' by inaction. John Kennedy once said 'don't ask what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country". Don't always expect to get more than what you 'put in', but without 'in put' nothing gets done and nothing ever changes. I intend to try with in put and put in for change. I will not sit on my hands and expect everyone else to do what needs to be done. That just might be what one very very nice person whose husband was president of the board meant when she said some people just want to raise their hands and say "I want to be on the board without ever doing any work to get there". I agreed with her totally on that point.
Jerel Kerby
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#5 Heidi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:20 AM

Our dues are 50 a year for weaha., that includes a listing on the weaha web site and if we want a full page add in our yearly guide that's 100 per page.I like many of the small breeders have to spend my money where I think it's value added and haven't been a p.s. member for several years With the new program that does interest me as a non showing member but feel like the increased dues unless you join year to year is a slap in the face.I will volunteer to work any time I'm at the event BUT was told by a board member they really weren't interested in my time only my money.... very distressing to think that the highest percent of Egyptian horse owners are not part of the origination that is supposed to represent them.I think the P.S. does a great job promoting Se halter but the reality is most owners are like my neighbor girl who rides her se gelding around the neighbor hood bareback in a halter.
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BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#6 maxhopemime

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:31 AM

Count me in, and no at this time I am not a PS member, living on the west coast no horses ready to show at the PS and not marketing anything to sell, I have yet to come up with a good reason to pay 350 a year just to say I am a PS member.
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#7 Roze

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

I would love to see a collective voice of smaller SE breeders to be able to make a larger impact on issues. I think small breeders certainly come across different challenges than some of the larger operations and it would be nice to be able to collectively address those.

Roze Arabians Ltd.
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(Ansata Nile Bay x LM Bint Fakher)
2001 Straight Egyptian Mare

Aroze to Nobility
(Aspecial Ali x Noble Karama)
2005 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Escapade SHF
(Scapa x The Aurora)
2009 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Mehdi Amir RZ
(Masada Mazal x Nile Roze+)
2013 Straight Egyptian Colt

 

Noble Kamara

(Imperial Al Kamar x Imperial Sahrapha)
2000 Straight Egyptian Mare

 

Rest In Peace:

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(Laheeb Al Nasser x Dorian Binthadidi)
2011 Straight Egyptian Stallion

 

http://www.rozearabians.com

 


#8 An American Breeder

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

Bit confused here Mr. Kerby. Is this a questionnaire on why people are not a member of TPS? Is that the main focus of this new group?

As for small breeder just exactly what is that? Needs a definition. Decades ago at one of the US Nats, Albuquerque, Carolyn of TPS office told me something like 80? or 90?% of their membership had 3 SE horses or less. If numbers make small breeders what is the cut-off to be?

#9 valley horse center

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:14 PM

I think a group like this could definitely be a step in the right direction.. An "Organized" group of people all wanting to make a step in the right direction. Keep the ideas coming, Jerel. AND, glad you are still 'here' with 'us'!

Jodi Tuft
Valley Horse Center
www.valleyhorsecenter.com

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#10 Jerelkerby

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

An American Breeder! You are going to have to unconfuse yourself. I said I had made several posts on Facebook and won't be repeating most of them. If you are not up to snuff on most of the issues then educate yourself. I am not going to get drageed into an argument type discussion with you.
Try reading pages 44 and 45 of the October, 2012 issue of "Arabian Horse World". Not my article and not my words, but they are there. Do you even get "Arabian Horse World" or any other magazine? There are some excellent articles in them.
The PS is not a bad thing IMO we can improve it, but we have to be on the ship to help steer it.
SESBA is a collective helpful association is what we want. The parameters are and will be taken on one by one or two by two. We want to help each other 'collectively' as I have stated as a group. This is not about PS mostly, but it is a part. It is mostly about people helping each orher and about people helping and promoting Straight Egyptian Arabians.... even IMO that some people breed too many (many sub-standard just cuz they got a mare and a stud) and then complain about the market and having to feed them. If that same person bred one less SE he or she had to feed and take $50.00 like Heidi said was the dues of their group and make a difference for our breed.
I usually breed 1, 2, to 3 foals a year and take the responsibility of taking care of them, selling them, if colts, geld them and find them a good home even if the stud fee was 3K and mare care and A.I. expensive. I don't try to make a profit and will give the colt away gelded to a good home. However, if I have a breeding quality colt with stud fee as high as 5K. I will try and find that colt a GREAT HOME where he will be used wisely and appropriately.
Jerel Kerby :cool:

#11 Jerelkerby

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

Valley Horse Center ...thank you.... good to talk with ol' friends, make new friends, and as God wills try and be a better person overall.
Jerel

#12 Roze

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:01 PM

I usually breed 1, 2, to 3 foals a year and take the responsibility of taking care of them, selling them, if colts, geld them and find them a good home even if the stud fee was 3K and mare care and A.I. expensive. I don't try to make a profit and will give the colt away gelded to a good home. However, if I have a breeding quality colt with stud fee as high as 5K. I will try and find that colt a GREAT HOME where he will be used wisely and appropriately.
Jerel Kerby :cool:


I'm curious as to why you are giving away your geldings, do you not feel that even as geldings your horse has value? I think this is one of the biggest issue the Arabian breed has as a whole. Why are our geldings not worth anything?! Do we not strive when we breed our mares to create a great horse, whether mare, gelding or stallion? If we perpetuate the problem of giving away geldings because we feel they are worthless, this will continue to hurt our industry again and again! I understand we are in a tough market and sometimes we just need to cut numbers down, even if this means giving away a horse, but this should not be the plan we have when we breed a mare if we end up with a gelding. This IMO is a prime issue that needs to be addressed before many others! Other breeds value geldings higher than other sexes because they sell for the most money and are the most desired, it's crazy to me that Arabian geldings are simply discarded as collateral damage in most breeding programs.
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Roze Arabians Ltd.
Straight Egyptians, Straight Performance

Nile Roze+

(Ansata Nile Bay x LM Bint Fakher)
2001 Straight Egyptian Mare

Aroze to Nobility
(Aspecial Ali x Noble Karama)
2005 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Escapade SHF
(Scapa x The Aurora)
2009 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Mehdi Amir RZ
(Masada Mazal x Nile Roze+)
2013 Straight Egyptian Colt

 

Noble Kamara

(Imperial Al Kamar x Imperial Sahrapha)
2000 Straight Egyptian Mare

 

Rest In Peace:

Amer Azhaar

(Laheeb Al Nasser x Dorian Binthadidi)
2011 Straight Egyptian Stallion

 

http://www.rozearabians.com

 


#13 An American Breeder

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:58 PM

Mr Kerby -- I do not do Facebook. Period. Find it way too intrusive into an individual's life.

Also I quit taking Arabian Horse World after several decades, yes I remember it and had the magazines from when Schuler's started that periodical back in New York and when they moved to California. When it became all gloss, almost all ads, very little substance, I could not justify the cost.

So I will just go back my way and you won't be having any more tantrums caused by me. :)
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#14 Jerelkerby

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

Roze,
The gelding do have 'value' and to me and my economic situation I can afford to give to a good home instead of sell to just anyone. It is that I like to find then good homes .... I mean good homes...... it is important to me that a good home has more value than selling for what horse of all breeds are going for in our area. $200. to $500. and that is usually when broke to ride. Then you do not know what kind of home they go to. We have two geldings we ride (my boys ride) and we have 2 mares we ride. I have very few gelding to give away or have to find homes for as I breed a very low number of horses yearly.
What I would like to see at EE is a 'pleasure class' for adults and a 'pleasure class for kids'. Nothing fancy one each western and one each English. No pinkies in the air, no trainers involved. Just people showing off riding their beautiful geldings and/or mares in a simple pleasure class. There would be no training expense as it would be like we did at the horse shows growing up in Missouri. We never had a trainer and rode in 'pleasure classes' and got ribbons. It would be pure fun and not so rigid and more affordable for many people. They would be able to showcase their horses 'disposition' which was spoke of as being extremely important at this years Breeders Conference. A very good lecture by a very nice and capable lady from Europe. Pamela especially liked her and her lecture. Also, could show off the beauty of the horse under saddle just naturally......... I loved that class as a kid. Also, showed our younger horses in halter... trained ourselves and did barrel racing...which was popular there then. There was not the roping classes for boys like here in Texas now. Boys barrell racing and girls barrel racing. All a lot of fun fun fun.
Roze back somewhat to your topic is the value of the geldings. If we have these things then the value would raise. If fewer were bred and/or more selective breeding then the value would raise with supply and demand. Possibly that would be something important to have in the Straight Egyptian Small Breeders Assoiciation. A "Pleasure Horse Show" for SE's at different farms. Adult western and English, Kids Western and English and break down into age groups 2 to 3 age groups. Helments for kids. No trainer trained horses needed per se....... of course someone will have to break them etc., but none of the 'pinky stuff, none of the arms here, there, judge the pleasure, beauty, smile on the child and/or adults face and put disposition of the horse on a higher catagory. I had one Polish/domestic gelding I rode for a while, but he had a terrible disposition.....very pretty and good movement, but he made me "kiss the sky and say howdy to the ground" on 4 occasions..... I was getting too old for that so I sold him with disclaimer that at any moment and you never knew when he would let you tery and learn to fly. Yes, I actually sold him for $500.00. The guy was a much youger man and a 'wrangler type' and said he loved his looks and thought he could break him of his flight lessons.
I will actually be breeding 4 mares next year and I am really apprehensive about it, but I did not start out planning for 4...actually 3. However, I was going to ET Hey Baby and double up on the Mishaal HP x Hey Baby cross and HB at about 17 days lost the first ET embryo and by the time we got her bred back it was too late to continue trying to do ET. That foal will be due in June. I had already got a breeding to Botswana, bought an EBC breeding to the stunning Al Adeed son at Lyday Farm (I love his pedigree to) Al Adeed son with Al Shaqab mare on bottom and Kehilan (sorry Becky if I misspelled this) Stallion and breeding on mare side as well. Seemed to be a stacked deck and I wanted to bred him LF Al Saher to a filly out of my Shahir ISAB daughter with Dr. Nagel's Influence on sire line. Her name is DSA Fancy Prance and can be seen on youtube. Then there was another love at first sight stallion I liked in an ad article and when I saw him in person at the Egyptian Event I had to get a breeding to him "Shahim Al Nakeeb" an NK Hafid Jamil son whom I understand is only going to be in the States for 3 years if I am not mistaken. I love the Nagel lines and Simeon and have recently 'loaded up' on Hanan and Jamil.... Even have a filly out of my Shahir daughter who is double Asfour ..once on top and once on bottom in the sire line and in the tail female line....
OK. so back to SESBA .... I propose we have a "pleasure horse show next year at ?, Cheryl Balmer (and Karl) have a tremendous facility for such a show... and I bet we could maybe talk Hank and Sandy into hosting one as well. Talk about facilities....GEEEEEEZEEE. Hank and I actually talked about having a second Egyptian Event at his farm and I think it would be an excellent idea as well. Exposure Exposure Exposure....... Enjoyment, Enjoyment, Enjoyment......
Jerel

#15 Heidi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

Roze until people like you have more geldings in open competition there will be no interest in se geldings. My friend under my advice gelded her colt and has showed him sport horse with absolutely no lookers for a gelding.. My club has started a se gelding program to place great geldings in homes that will use them as performance horses.
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BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#16 JacqueB

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:19 PM

I'm curious as to why you are giving away your geldings, do you not feel that even as geldings your horse has value? I think this is one of the biggest issue the Arabian breed has as a whole. Why are our geldings not worth anything?! Do we not strive when we breed our mares to create a great horse, whether mare, gelding or stallion? If we perpetuate the problem of giving away geldings because we feel they are worthless, this will continue to hurt our industry again and again! I understand we are in a tough market and sometimes we just need to cut numbers down, even if this means giving away a horse, but this should not be the plan we have when we breed a mare if we end up with a gelding. This IMO is a prime issue that needs to be addressed before many others! Other breeds value geldings higher than other sexes because they sell for the most money and are the most desired, it's crazy to me that Arabian geldings are simply discarded as collateral damage in most breeding programs.

Exactly Roze! To me this would be where a small Egyptian breeders organization could make a real difference - helping our geldings do so well under saddle in open classes that they are desirable/valuable to the general public, so you wouldn't have a 50-50 chance of losing money for every foal. The gelding just has a longer time line for getting your money back because people don't typically buy them as yearlings, they buy them going well green undersaddle - about 4 yrs old or getting money back 5 years back after the planned mating. Hope the new organization can address this very issue & offer support, that would be really exciting.
JacqueB

#17 Heidi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

I would love to see an outreach where endurance riders would WANT a straight Gelding as future prospects.
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BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#18 Roze

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

I would love to see an outreach where endurance riders would WANT a straight Gelding as future prospects.


That's a fantastic idea!!

Roze Arabians Ltd.
Straight Egyptians, Straight Performance

Nile Roze+

(Ansata Nile Bay x LM Bint Fakher)
2001 Straight Egyptian Mare

Aroze to Nobility
(Aspecial Ali x Noble Karama)
2005 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Escapade SHF
(Scapa x The Aurora)
2009 Straight Egyptian Gelding

Mehdi Amir RZ
(Masada Mazal x Nile Roze+)
2013 Straight Egyptian Colt

 

Noble Kamara

(Imperial Al Kamar x Imperial Sahrapha)
2000 Straight Egyptian Mare

 

Rest In Peace:

Amer Azhaar

(Laheeb Al Nasser x Dorian Binthadidi)
2011 Straight Egyptian Stallion

 

http://www.rozearabians.com

 


#19 Marilee

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:18 PM

I am thinking back to my friends' horses here in Las Vegas in the 80s/90s. I'll get the horses names and their bloodlines later on to add here.

*Almudaffar--SE stallion, ridden in several endurance rides, and shown in parades and halter and under saddle by Jon Wall.

Vera Vann's ER/EB gelding, son of the above, ridden in many endurance rides, shown in 3-day eventing,(dressage, cross country, stadium jumping), on the cover of International Arabian Horse Magazine. .

Crystal Austin's ER/EB gelding, shown in performance open and breed.

Claire Toomey's ER/EB gelding, ridden in several endurance rides. All of these people are still actively involved with horses many years later. Helped found the Las Vegas Egyptian Arabian Owners Association in 1983 (I think). to get our horses out there in open anything, and educate the public, using them as ambassadors.in a positive way........

#20 Jerelkerby

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

I think if we 'create more demand and uses for the gelding then supply and demand would certainly help. We love and cherish our riding geldings. When we had our gelding giving 'pony rides' at my son Jered's private school to well over a 100 kids...from 11:00AM until 3PM and they never jumped, faltered or anything, but just gave rides to kid after kid and made smile after smile.



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