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Ai And More Doors That Have Been Opened With Its Use


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#1 An American Breeder

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:27 PM

Years ago AQHA lost in its battle to stop multiple embroyo transplant foals from one mare from being registered in court.  I can remember when it was the going rage in racing Quarter horse breeding establishments.  The vets couldn't be bothered with an Arabian with the money to be made with Quarters.  Ah so it takes the year of conception/carrying the foal, another year and almost 2 years before that foal gets to the yearling auction sales for the big money.

 

THEN the surprise!  The buyers did not want foals carried by another mare!  Sure put a dent in that aspect of Quarter breeding (racing).  Do not know today, this moment, but cannot believe much has changed.

 

TODAY AQHA lost another battle regarding the registration of clones which I am totally against. 

 

We all have our own opinions and several will dis-agree.  After moving to Texas sold my Equitainers for shipped semen.  Have been there several times, no more.  Either live cover or open.

 

Am asking Hansi that we not cover again (your views are well known) the parts you decry but just AND ONLY discuss how AI has hurt the breed in respects to all these embroyos from one mare and the aspect of now clones.  My feelings are this will harm the breed tremendously. 



#2 Ray

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:13 AM

There is a lot to be said on this subject.  From my perspective, not much of what can be said is supportive of the "technology".  Arabians were bred to be what they are under fairly specific environmental and management conditions - none of which included AI, embryo transfer or cloning.  Introducing these artificial methods is, necessarily, introducing unknowns into the breeding equation.  I don't care how many billion sperms are produced and that we know it only takes one to get the job done.  Nature gave the male what seems to us to be a ridiculous overabundance of sperm.  There is a reason for these numbers and the fact is that we humans just don't know the exact reason for it.  This condition is repeated in many other species, so it is not unique to the horse.  It is nature's way of ensuring survival and making evolutionary change, when needed, possible.  We don't need to mess with that. 

 

All this "technology" is nothing more than catering to shallow-minded people.  If your goal in horse ownership is to be associated with some "big name", and you get your kicks by being able to buy your way into the limelight and somehow share the glory of it all, then you need to be kicked to the curb.  Enabling this artificial glory through artificial technology to artificial owners is just sick.  These technologies should be used in emergencies - to save the last of a line, for instance, and should be made available at no cost to the line in need of saving. 

 

Will shut up, for now.  :ph34r:       


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#3 anitae

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:47 AM

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  I don't care how many billion sperms are produced and that we know it only takes one to get the job done.  Nature gave the male what seems to us to be a ridiculous overabundance of sperm.  There is a reason for these numbers and the fact is that we humans just don't know the exact reason for it.  This condition is repeated in many other species, so it is not unique to the horse.  It is nature's way of ensuring survival and making evolutionary change, when needed, possible.  

Ray, I was told the reason is that, even at that scale, they won't ask for directions.


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#4 MARSHALL NZ

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:13 AM

I am totally with natural is BEST, unless it is the difference between not producing the next generation then what ever it takes... experience is telling me more and more natural produces the best results.


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#5 ArleneMagid

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

The narrowing of the gene pool in the breed is a very worrying thing. Without genetic diversity we are in big trouble. And of course the allowance of cloning and embryo transfer increases the advantages of the wealthy who can afford such things over the small breeder who cannot. The smaller breeder of quality stock has been the backnone of this breed in western civilization. In my experience many people who own only a few horses do a lot more study about conformation and select more carefully the lines they use, whereas some large farms breed as many foals as they can a year, hoping that one or two will be superstars and garner them a lot of media attention so people will come and buy the lesser horses of their breeding.

 

It's all bad. I haven't had time to follow the developments in the AQHA cloning case this past week but to me this is really depressing news. I wonder if the infamous clone of the semifertile multiple National Champion Arabian Stallion LD Pistal will now be allowed to breed? When AQHA lost its battle to not allow multiple embryo transfer foals to be registered, AHA followed suit immediately....so as AQHA goes, AHA may well follow.


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#6 An American Breeder

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:38 AM

There are mares that will not conceive by AI.  There are mares that for one reason or not that will not conceive period.  For years vets have been quietly telling the Arabian owners breeding that there are reasons why these types of horses should not be reproducing -- ie not for the good of the breed overall in the long run.  No one has listened.
 

There are stallions that should not be used.  While some stallions could be used and actually forced into breeding outside of their own lines, ie inbreeding and line breeding, done heavily, AI has encouraged this practice.

 

When AI first came out approved breeders, including myself, believed finally here was the opportunity to obtain choice blood could never have otherwise.  So I tried breeding to stallions of my choice.  Never did get that special foal but sure did have the bills, the terrific costs!  What AI has done is tremendously SHRINK the genetic pool.  Old stallions have died in the last few days and one breeder asked me WHO the replacements, young stallions are that would turn that person on?  I doubt there are any.  Now I know there are going to be those that pooh-pooh that statement -- because I HAVE or I KNOW or I AM INVOLVED WITH such and such a farm/trainer who has such and such a horse.  Ahh time will tell

 

.  What I see in legs, conformation, DISPOSITION which includes trainability is not promising.  Stallions being touted not under saddle and there is a very good reason for that.  There are lines that are ok to nice to handle on the ground but when demanded they wear leather, are sullen, and frankly just plan not nice to be around.  This is NOT a trait that should be bred on if horses are to be using animals and that IS how horses evolved


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#7 Suellen Taylor

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:13 PM

The narrowing of the gene pool in the breed is a very worrying thing. Without genetic diversity we are in big trouble. And of course the allowance of cloning and embryo transfer increases the advantages of the wealthy who can afford such things over the small breeder who cannot. The smaller breeder of quality stock has been the backnone of this breed in western civilization. In my experience many people who own only a few horses do a lot more study about conformation and select more carefully the lines they use, whereas some large farms breed as many foals as they can a year, hoping that one or two will be superstars and garner them a lot of media attention so people will come and buy the lesser horses of their breeding.

 

I highlight the most important sentence in your post..and say AMEN....and then too, the "lesser" horses are touted as "gonna be's" and get put through training, lots of showing, not including the board fees, and end up with what..a 50 cent ribbon.  Been there, done that, LOL  Decided waaay back in the early 2000's, that my forte was breeding, raising, then selling the foals..if new owners wanted to show then so be it..had some successes there..hooray for new owners!  I am much better off, mentally and financially with fewer mares, and doing my own thing!  God willing, for a few more years!

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#8 Ray

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:12 PM

Ray, I was told the reason is that, even at that scale, they won't ask for directions.

LOL!  I think that statement might be true.  At that level, they don't need to ask for directions - it's all about chemistry.  :)


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#9 Nadj Al Nur

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

 

What AI has done is tremendously SHRINK the genetic pool.


I agree with that. I think the option of using AI has stopped "some" people from doing their homework and finding the good stallions that are closer to home, and they ARE out there, if people would just look for them. It has become easier to just go with what is popular....never mind if it is not a good cross for your mare. If everybody is doing it, it must be good, right??
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#10 Ray

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

AI divorces the stallion and the mare owners from each other and also from either of them having responsibility for the outcome.  Allowing AI was a compromise by AHA - they saw dollar signs.  One compromise leads to another - now we have ET and cloning is on the horizon?  It's plain crazy. 



#11 An American Breeder

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:00 PM

Before the advent of AI just about everybody knew what everybody else had or was buying, etc.  Gossip, rumor led to getting in the ole vehicle and going to see the new "kid" or old "man" down the street or highway.  I really do think it was better in the long run.  People talked horse, were a lot nicer to one another, and actually supported each other either in the area or in the state.  More horses were broke to ride.  If the stallion or mare had foals then the verbal comparisons were made, analyzing if this stallion had been as good a "cross" as that stallion, etc.  We just plain saw more horses.  And I suspect became better breeders and better horse people.

 

AI has changed that.  People pick stallions for their mares off of email blasts and photos.  Had someone send me one as a forward of one of those, actually a stallion, yes, that I had asked about, with the comment:  Do I see a pink ball there?  Looked again.  Yup.  oh oh

 

Another aspect of AI is the cost of stud fees.  AI has not made the stud fees cheaper!  If not the same they are actually higher!


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#12 VanAlma

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:06 PM

I don't think AI is always a bad thing, but I tell you what, if I happen to own a mare, there are good chances she will not get in foal AI <sigh>.

It is interesting what the internet has done to horse logic in general. I fell victim to it myself when I first started buying youngsters again and communicating via emails versus going to see the horse as I had always done when I was younger. I was ALWAYS surprised, often on the disappointed end of that surprise, when the horse stepped off the trailer as the owner didn't tell me X about their legs and feet or Y about their movement, and misjudging height is CRAZY in Arabs. I bought a really lovely mare who was supposed to be 15h and when she stepped off the trailer was maybe 14 and, now at maturity, is maybe 14.2. This was a breeder who is well known and well respected, too. I was very naive in that I assumed people would be honest. I didn't have trouble when I was younger because they knew we were coming, so they were honest on the phone and any interactions and people weren't afraid to say "I don't know", which I have a lot of respect for. Anyway, it's amazing what has happened in general, and it is not a good thing, because so many people are full of **it.

I shared info on a stallion with someone who was looking and this stallion had a snubbed/clubbed foot. Sometimes, they will snub it if there is an injury so I give them the benefit of the doubt, but his offspring ALL had that same clubbed foot, even the half Arab and domestic crosses. I tried telling this woman about it and she wanted to argue with me because she didn't see anything wrong with him in the picture despite the fact that I told her I had seen him and many offspring with my own 2 eyes  :blink:  That is not a good thing for our future.


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#13 Ray

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:46 PM

I don't think AI is always a bad thing, but I tell you what, if I happen to own a mare, there are good chances she will not get in foal AI <sigh>.

It is interesting what the internet has done to horse logic in general. I fell victim to it myself when I first started buying youngsters again and communicating via emails versus going to see the horse as I had always done when I was younger. I was ALWAYS surprised, often on the disappointed end of that surprise, when the horse stepped off the trailer as the owner didn't tell me X about their legs and feet or Y about their movement, and misjudging height is CRAZY in Arabs. I bought a really lovely mare who was supposed to be 15h and when she stepped off the trailer was maybe 14 and, now at maturity, is maybe 14.2. This was a breeder who is well known and well respected, too. I was very naive in that I assumed people would be honest. I didn't have trouble when I was younger because they knew we were coming, so they were honest on the phone and any interactions and people weren't afraid to say "I don't know", which I have a lot of respect for. Anyway, it's amazing what has happened in general, and it is not a good thing, because so many people are full of **it.

I shared info on a stallion with someone who was looking and this stallion had a snubbed/clubbed foot. Sometimes, they will snub it if there is an injury so I give them the benefit of the doubt, but his offspring ALL had that same clubbed foot, even the half Arab and domestic crosses. I tried telling this woman about it and she wanted to argue with me because she didn't see anything wrong with him in the picture despite the fact that I told her I had seen him and many offspring with my own 2 eyes  :blink:  That is not a good thing for our future.

I used to think that some owners were either flatout lying or concealing evidence.  Now, I'm more inclined to think that they are just ignorant of the facts.  I've bought a few horses, sight unseen, and have had only one "surprise".  Education is key, and if owners are unwilling to expand their knowledge, then I am unwilling to purchase anything they have produced, without regard to the possibility that the individual offered might be fantastic.  If a breeder exhibits little knowledge of fundamentals and no inclination to listen and learn, then their program must be based on blind luck.  For this reason (among others), this is where I part ways with breeders who casually accept AI and embryo transplants as nothing out of the ordinary.  If we were colonizing another planet, these technologies would be helpful in getting genetic material from here to there.  Otherwise, get back to reality and assist in propagating the species as nature intended. 



#14 Suellen Taylor

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:56 PM

I never bred any of my mares to any stallion, sight unseen, AI or live cover, nor did i use them if i had not done a fantasy pedigree, even colored as to strain etc. Needed to know what the future generations would look like, with high hopes always!

 

I agree with whomever said that AI divorces the stallion and mare owner, as most stallion owners, as far as I am concerned , are interested in the stud fee, never follow-up on the births, let alone to see if anything took place, nor do I think they care..and mostly, I have found out, it is the larger farms.  I have, at my disposal, at least 2 rebreeds (semen just bad) and one filly guarantee rebreed..will not use them..and it is because of the owners..will not deal with them any longer..lesson learned!


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#15 VanAlma

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:02 PM

Yeah - it's a crap shoot without seeing them. I also suspect some people are concealing things and others really don't know. Of course, my definition of X might not match so-n-so's definition of X - which leaves a lot of room for error when you can't see them in person.

Being that my stallion has a broken jaw due to live cover, I can see how people would want to keep them "safe". I won't (terrible owner I am) but if I had the facility, time and money, I'd have him collected on site and inseminate the mare with the full collection just so I don't end up thousands in the red again. I don't see a problem with that, personally.

More and more, I do see a problem with people not really researching the horse and trends in the breeding of that animal and it's pedigree. Of course, young or unproven animals have little to show for it, but seeing families does help in making better decisions. Sadly, all some people need to see is a pretty picture and a ribbon and their decision-making stops right there.


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#16 Ray

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:19 PM

I never bred any of my mares to any stallion, sight unseen, AI or live cover, nor did i use them if i had not done a fantasy pedigree, even colored as to strain etc. Needed to know what the future generations would look like, with high hopes always!

 

I agree with whomever said that AI divorces the stallion and mare owner, as most stallion owners, as far as I am concerned , are interested in the stud fee, never follow-up on the births, let alone to see if anything took place, nor do I think they care..and mostly, I have found out, it is the larger farms.  I have, at my disposal, at least 2 rebreeds (semen just bad) and one filly guarantee rebreed..will not use them..and it is because of the owners..will not deal with them any longer..lesson learned!

I said that - so you can change your mind, if you want to. :laugh:

 

Mare owners are the LAST person that stallion owners want to hear from during breeding season because it means they will probably have to go get another collection and go through that entire hassle - yet again.  :dry:


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#17 An American Breeder

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:37 PM

IF Ray, the stallion owner is actually involved in the collection.  If it is a vet they love hearing it b/c again they get to "whack it to the mare owner."  Can remember breeding 3 mares, same stallion, with using a vet over at a good breeding farm in NM for palpations, ultrasounds, etc $1000 bill which I paid.  He never got one of the mares involved in foal using AI.

 

Owners were using AI at their own farms, which was and should be acceptable, hence AHA decided to open it up -- course in those days it was a huge fee for the AI permit and a $1000 fine if you forgot to get the permit first.

 

Many many years ago with the first mare I ever took for breeding, a Thoroughbred, a man told me the stallion owner is equally as important as the stallion.

 

Now in a different view.  The stallion gets teased for the collection, little bit of nature involved.  The mare gets palpated, ultrasounded to death, stuck with needles for whatever, especially maidens, so nothing will happen bad to the vet, etc.  This ultrasounding of the mare at time of heat, then after breeding at 10, 12, 15, 17 days (some vets even get 2 different ultrasounds from those days, ie the owner pays twice for 2 ultrasounds done on different days coming up to and including that 17th day after breeding).  If for some reason the mare doesn't show back in heat comes the 30 day, then the 45 day, and probably the 60 day ultrasounds.

 

That is pure invasion of the poor mare's body!  If some think I exaggerate, no I do not.  I have read breeding contracts where that is in print.  The mare rarely gets any of the natural stimulus -- teasing, stallion actions.

 

Think on it ladies -- what happens to the mare is close to or is rape.  Then all the invasions of her body. 


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#18 zeplinsmom

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

From a process that removes the embryo from the body (ET) to cloning was not such a stretch. Hey, we already inject tons of hormones into these poor mares to cause superovulation (releasing of more than one egg at a time) in order to inseminate them then flush out the embryos produced in this process. None of that is gentle on the mare. Meanwhile, recipient mares have to receive hormones themselves so that they can be at the right stage in their cycles to implant these embryos. Plenty of research also indicates that the womb in which the egg is placed has an effect on the gene expression (including phenotype) of the offspring.

 

Cloning does a similar thing, except the eggs collected from a mare are not inseminated; instead, the nucleus is removed and replaced with the cultured blastocyst from the donor horse. The resulting clone will not look identical to the original in the slightest. I even think it's possible that germline cells (what go on to become sperm cells in the mature stallion or egg cells in the mare) are affected and different in some ways. I don't know if any studies have been done to determine that. It's not quite like identical twins, because you have the epigenetic contribution of the recipient mare. Epigenetics is still a relatively new field of study.


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#19 An American Breeder

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:14 AM

In Boer goats flushing for those superovulation eggs is big time and expense.  Not many readily admit but the doe is only good for that 2/3 times and then basically is ready to go to the killers.

 

Mares are not going to be any different.

 

And here is another yet with AI and what it has done regarding the breed.  Lasma and Cedardell are the only farms I can remember that bred and showed two different mares of their own breeding to US National Champion Mare (certainly way before the 2000's).  Those fantastic show mares rarely produced themselves - Cedardell mares did not.  But here was the telling by so many old-time breeders.

 

The full sister, the full brothers were better producers than the Champions.  How many know how closely related Shah Zim is to be Bey Shah?  Look up the pedigrees.  Two ENTIRELY different stallions who produced entirely different. 

 

AI has removed from sight of the stallion owner the full sisters, closely related sisters from the breeding pool.  Only the champions are bred. 

 

There were/used to be/still to be found but one has to hunt, are the mares that are nicely bred, nice conformation, good dispositions, ridden, who could produce nice foals if not occasionally the stellar foal.  Not today because again, not seen.  And with their passing goes another bloodline, another strain, and we continue to SHRINK the gene pool.

 

I can remember when sisters had nice mares bred in the Raseyn lines and they would ride their mares down the road to Sheila's and breed to Bay-Abi.  Think his stud fee was $350 then. 


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#20 Aimbri

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:27 AM

Many years ago, I took the Equine AI Technician course.  What I learned, for the most part, is that the entire process was SOOOO invasive, that I didn't want to be subjecting my animals to it.

 

I live cover with my mares and stallions.  In fact, Moon Sheine, at age 26 years, paddock breeds his mares.  It just works better that way.  


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