35 replies to this topic

[chiron]

  I give up, surrender, throw in the towel.  If you can't wrap your brain around very simple genetic modes of inheritance.  STOP BREEDING.
I see "someone" is having a little snit.  Ah, well.  
Was is me???  Was it something I said?????  
If you have a recessive you've got a real problem cause without a test you don't know it til 2 recessive carriers produce an affected.  This might NVEVER happen & all you have unknowingly done is made more carrers.   I am convinced in my own mind from my own experiences & observations that the BeBhop is a Dominant, diet modulated with varing degrees of expression.   This is simple to handle.  FIRST rule: Never breed Affected to Affected. 75% of the foals will be Affected. 25% MIGHT be clear & 25% will be homozygous for the BeBhop & ALL of their foals will be affected .  Make sure by testing undersaddle ALL BeB/BeeB/ABN horses before breeding. If with testing they do not exhibit any gait irregularities they are good to go & may be bred any way you chose  An Affected from a tested clear may be used for breeding but ONLY to a tested clear.  then test the offspring. Averages say 50% will be clears.  This is a line with many, many wonderful traits,  IF, even without a test, people will just step up & be honest with themselves & one another we can breed around this.

But, hey, a genetic test is even better.




Appoligies to any who might have read before I did a correction.  Not enough Coka-Cola tonite.

[Ray]

Bad girls, bad girls, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do bad girl, bad girl  

[H Fillmore]

RAY - -  I did my very best to Save these horses by linking their aliments to Vit. E and the 4 Universitys above supported my ideas, (Especially Marcia King / Post #4).   I have been censured from talking about this subject anymore by Lorrie G. who offered her Legal Services to Site Members wishing to file a lawsuit against me for, "Practicing Medicine without a license" ( My Vit. E Claims).   Jessica was right, when she said that no-one will ever buy a B.E. Bataa T-L horse again - after all of the "Bashings" that they have taken by members of this site.   I personally am very disappointed by the lack of support I have gotten from people that I thought were my friends.  I will take another approach on this subject.

                                                                                 - - - Hugh

[Angella]

What a fuggin melodramatic display.

Nobody has said the line should die, the horses should be put down or never bred.  Nobody has even said Vitamin E might not be part of the solution.  What they have said... repeatedly... is that breeding should be done cautiously.  It doesn't take much common sense to realize that affected to affected is a bad idea.  It doesn't take much common sense to realize that there is a genetic link... it cannot be mtDNA.and thank God for that.  If it is mtDNA, then the line truly is doomed since no BEB horse will ever be born that is not affected.  That should not be something you want to be the case, Hugh.   It doesn't take much common sense to realize actually understanding the genetics behind this will go a long way towards increasing the marketability of these horses.  If a test is developed that can show a horse, conclusively, to be clear the those who came on here and said they would never buy this mare would, I'm very sure, be more than happy to buy a tail female demonstrated clear horse.

Vitamin E, clearly, is not the whole answer.  The vitamin E theory has been around as long as these horses have been recognized as affected.  Do you honestly believe you are the only person who has ever supplemented these horses with Vitamin E?  

I own a tail female BEB horse that I do intend to breed.  I do believe her to be clear, yes, but I also intend to supplement with Vitamin E and sesame oil just in case because I do believe that it is related to some form of Vitamin E deficiency.  In fact, I believe it enough that I actually researched things to help increase absorption of Vitamin E.  However, she will never be bred to another BEB stallion whether both are clear or not... just in case... until a test is developed that can prove it is safe to do so because I do believe it is genetically inherited.

Loving the line is not a problem.  There is a lot to love.  Trying to save the line is not a problem.  It is worth saving and has a lot to offer.  But if you are going to do the line justice you need to consider all the possible causes and factors.  If it is genetically inherited and you do breed two together, and it is dominant you will, as Chiron said, risk breeding homozygous affecteds whose children will all be affected.  It will be at least two generations... or ten years... before you can possible ever hope to have a clear horse.  Why would you do that?

My objection is not to you breeding these horses... just breeding affecteds together... and to the blind adherence to one philosophy to the extent that all contrasting evidence is simply denied and ignored.  The answer will only be found if all information is considered.

As for Lorriee... she was offering to defend you for practicing without a license... not sue you... and it was based solely on your blind adherence to the dogma that there is nothing wrong with the BEB lines.  

I don't know how prevalent this issue is.  A few stories does not tell the whole tale.. but for every person on here talking about their affected lines, there also seems to be those on here talking about their clear lines.  This is not, and doesn't have to be, the death knell for BEB any more than HYPP was the death knell for Impressive.  Once a test was developed, Impressive carried on carrying on and can be found in many performance quarter horses today.  BEB will do the same.

You will of course do as you choose... even play target practice with your horses and sell their carcasses off for dog meat if that is your wish.  But those decisions will be your own.

[Ray]

H Fillmore, on Jan 16 2010, 02:25 AM, said:

RAY - - This will be my Last Post.   I did my very best to Save these horses by linking their aliments to Vit. E and the 4 Universitys above supported my ideas, (Especially Marcia King / Post #4).   I have been
censured from talking about this subject anymore by Lorrie G. who offered her Legal Services to Site
Members wishing to file a lawsuit against me for, "Practicing Medicine without a license" ( My Vit. E
Claims).   Jessica was right, when she said that no-one will ever buy a B.E. Bataa T-L horse again -
after all of the "Bashings" that they have taken by members of this site.   I personally am very
disappointed by the lack of support I have gotten from people that I thought were my friends.  This
should help you understand why I have to do, what I have to do

                                                                                 - - - Adios,  Hugh

Hugh - I'm disappointed in myself, since it looks like I have been unable to convince, cajole or otherwise get a message across to you.  On this issue it is the horses who need your help - we don't.  No one is censuring you - they are simply saying that this issue can not be laid to rest with the Vit E solution only.  

Do you really give a darn if anyone buys a horse from you, or not?  Isn't the real goal for many of us just in producing a horse or two that others wish they could buy?  Producing something that impresses people who REALLY know what a horse is all about?  The monetary worth of any horse, and whether or not someone will buy it, has so many variables attached which have nothing to do with the horse itself that we should not even discuss it in this context.

Please remember the idea that this problem might very well exist in other lines..not just the one you happen to own.  

Pull some hair, stick it in an envelope with the name and registration number and send to:

Dr Cecilia Penedo Phd.
Horse Research - CA /BeB-HOP
Veterinary Genetics Laboratory
University of California
One Shields Avenue
Davis, CA 95616-8744

If you can, also email her at: mctorrespenedo@ucdavis.edu with the registered name and number.

If you have not yet tested for CA, this is an opportunity to get that done and mention that the sample could be used for the BeB Hop testing (I am certain another name will be given, once it is known what this condition really is).

Don't run off mad.

[chiron]

  EXACTLY SPOT ON TO ANGELA & RAY      
If I could have my dear old AFFECTED Babi--a direct son of BeB herself--back tomorrow I would Jump for Joy at a chance to do right with the line Course a little pot o'money wouldn't hurt.
Testing----hopefully a genetic test will be on the way--or just plain old use them as the finest saddle horse ever born & breed accordingly.

PS : Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said  "The most un-common thing in the world is COMMON SENSE"   ??

[Nadj Al Nur]

chiron, on Jan 16 2010, 09:58 AM, said:

PS : Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said  "The most un-common thing in the world is COMMON SENSE"   ??

Actually Karen.......horse sense is NOT a thing of the past. There's still an awful lot of it around. It's just that the horses have it all.......
Cathy

[PAS]

H Fillmore, on Jan 16 2010, 02:25 AM, said:

RAY - - This will be my Last Post.   I did my very best to Save these horses by linking their aliments to Vit. E and the 4 Universitys above supported my ideas, (Especially Marcia King / Post #4).   I have been
censured from talking about this subject anymore by Lorrie G. who offered her Legal Services to Site
Members wishing to file a lawsuit against me for, "Practicing Medicine without a license" ( My Vit. E
Claims).   Jessica was right, when she said that no-one will ever buy a B.E. Bataa T-L horse again -
after all of the "Bashings" that they have taken by members of this site.   I personally am very
disappointed by the lack of support I have gotten from people that I thought were my friends.  This
should help you understand why I have to do, what I have to do

                                                                                 - - - Adios,  Hugh

Hugh,   I just want to say that WE ARE YOUR FRIENDS! Please never doubt that.

[Angella]

Nadj Al Nur, on Jan 16 2010, 07:26 PM, said:

Actually Karen.......horse sense is NOT a thing of the past. There's still an awful lot of it around. It's just that the horses have it all.......
Cathy

[chiron]

What ANGELA said.

Hey, Friends don't let friends drive drunk. Think of us as a bunch of friends just trying to prevent a real bad accident.        

[Juniper]

H Fillmore, on Jan 16 2010, 01:25 AM, said:

RAY - - This will be my Last Post.   I did my very best to Save these horses by linking their aliments to Vit. E and the 4 Universitys above supported my ideas, (Especially Marcia King / Post #4).   I have been
censured from talking about this subject anymore by Lorrie G. who offered her Legal Services to Site
Members wishing to file a lawsuit against me for, "Practicing Medicine without a license" ( My Vit. E
Claims).   Jessica was right, when she said that no-one will ever buy a B.E. Bataa T-L horse again -
after all of the "Bashings" that they have taken by members of this site.   I personally am very
disappointed by the lack of support I have gotten from people that I thought were my friends.  This
should help you understand why I have to do, what I have to do

                                                                                 - - - Adios,  Hugh

Hugh

You don't understand they are trying to help by finding test so that there will not be a need for the supplements.
Their horses are also CA carrier for Ray for instance, SCID carrier for me...  that is not the end of the world, it can be bred around.

[Juniper]

Angella, on Jan 16 2010, 07:16 AM, said:

What a fuggin melodramatic display.

Nobody has said the line should die, the horses should be put down or never bred.  Nobody has even said Vitamin E might not be part of the solution.  What they have said... repeatedly... is that breeding should be done cautiously.  It doesn't take much common sense to realize that affected to affected is a bad idea.  It doesn't take much common sense to realize that there is a genetic link... it cannot be mtDNA.and thank God for that.  If it is mtDNA, then the line truly is doomed since no BEB horse will ever be born that is not affected.  That should not be something you want to be the case, Hugh.   It doesn't take much common sense to realize actually understanding the genetics behind this will go a long way towards increasing the marketability of these horses.  If a test is developed that can show a horse, conclusively, to be clear the those who came on here and said they would never buy this mare would, I'm very sure, be more than happy to buy a tail female demonstrated clear horse.

Vitamin E, clearly, is not the whole answer.  The vitamin E theory has been around as long as these horses have been recognized as affected.  Do you honestly believe you are the only person who has ever supplemented these horses with Vitamin E?  

I own a tail female BEB horse that I do intend to breed.  I do believe her to be clear, yes, but I also intend to supplement with Vitamin E and sesame oil just in case because I do believe that it is related to some form of Vitamin E deficiency.  In fact, I believe it enough that I actually researched things to help increase absorption of Vitamin E.  However, she will never be bred to another BEB stallion whether both are clear or not... just in case... until a test is developed that can prove it is safe to do so because I do believe it is genetically inherited.

Loving the line is not a problem.  There is a lot to love.  Trying to save the line is not a problem.  It is worth saving and has a lot to offer.  But if you are going to do the line justice you need to consider all the possible causes and factors.  If it is genetically inherited and you do breed two together, and it is dominant you will, as Chiron said, risk breeding homozygous affecteds whose children will all be affected.  It will be at least two generations... or ten years... before you can possible ever hope to have a clear horse.  Why would you do that?

My objection is not to you breeding these horses... just breeding affecteds together... and to the blind adherence to one philosophy to the extent that all contrasting evidence is simply denied and ignored.  The answer will only be found if all information is considered.

As for Lorriee... she was offering to defend you for practicing without a license... not sue you... and it was based solely on your blind adherence to the dogma that there is nothing wrong with the BEB lines.  

I don't know how prevalent this issue is.  A few stories does not tell the whole tale.. but for every person on here talking about their affected lines, there also seems to be those on here talking about their clear lines.  This is not, and doesn't have to be, the death knell for BEB any more than HYPP was the death knell for Impressive.  Once a test was developed, Impressive carried on carrying on and can be found in many performance quarter horses today.  BEB will do the same.

You will of course do as you choose... even play target practice with your horses and sell their carcasses off for dog meat if that is your wish.  But those decisions will be your own.

great post

[H Fillmore]

RAY  - - Have some of those 60 yr Horse people who know how to contact Michael Bowling - ask
him to Provide his Professional Opinions on the Information in - - EDM, Post #6, Above.


                                                    - - - Hugh

[Ray]

H Fillmore, on Jan 22 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

RAY  - - Have some of those 60 yr Horse people who know how to contact Michael Bowling - ask
him to Provide his Professional Opinions on the Information in - - EDM, Post #6, Above.


                                                    - - - Hugh

Hello Hugh,

I can't ask anyone to contact Michael about this.  Anyone reading this who knows Michael is free to do what they want, in that regard.  What we often find is that people who are friends with doctors and lawyers and such are not anxious to ask them to work in their off-hours - it's like an imposition or taking advantage.  I know that my vet does not appreciate talking "shop" when it's time to go fishin'.  

Your theory can't be supported, nor can it be denied, conclusively.  So how about we just give our support to the researchers who do this for a living?  Here is a link to UC Davis News and Information. (click on the name to go to the page).  Down in the last paragraph you will see that UC Davis has an annual research budget that exceeds $500 million and 13 specialized research centers.  This facility has extended an offer to help.  Take it.  At the bottom of that same page there are some contacts listed.

[LMG]

Apparently there is a condition called "White Muscle Disease" in cattle, which has either a recognized relationship to vitamin E deficiencies.  I've also been told, in  a first person report, of a Morgan filly, which, if given massive doses of Vitamin E, has improvement with her observable ataxia and other related neurological signs and symptoms, take her off the "E" and she deteriorates almost immediately.  This filly was diagnosed with the deficiency at a Veterinary School, and a treatment - adding E to her diet - is palliative, not a cure.

If, and only if, a vitamin E deficiency was the problem, and if replacement "cured" the problem with no return to the pre-replacement condition (that is assuming that there is not an absorption problem,) then all is well and good.  However, this is a simplistic answer to a complicated issue for which there appears to be more than one underlying genetic related factor with multiple types of expression in nerve conduction, musculoskeletal involvement and the possible, if not apparent underlying inability to utilize a necessary ingredient in the required biochemistry for an animal to function within perimeters which would assure that such an herd animal would not be eaten right off the bat by a prey animal, thus eliminating the entire matter rather early on, but for human intervention or an occasional hiccup in the coding mechanism.

I like many of these horses and own them myself, and I'm not at all sure where we are going to go with all the genetic issues we are now faced with in our "tight little island" of horse breeding.  I do suspect, that if Arabian Horse breeding continues long after I am no longer involved with this avocation, more emphasis will be placed (but not always) on education rather mythology if breeders intend to have extended careers as breeders - or such will end up similar to the dog breeders who breed interesting to look at, not terribly sound dogs, which are fraught with genetic defects
- "pets."

Lorriee

[Katrin]

This afternoon I sent information about CA to my Vet. In the German wikipedia there is a new link provided in the CA information: VETAMIN D. This link explains seven groups of neurological disorders related to Vitamin D, but there's nothing about CA. The only ataxia mentioned is within sheep and goats and CA has nothing to do with sheep nor goats. That's exactly what I dislike about wiki - reminds me of the days at allbreed when Gharib figured as a Haflinger.