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Lets Talk About Hind Ends.


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#1 Phoenix

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

Ok all give your thoughts on great hind ends. One of my pet peeves is finding decent hind ends on numerous Straight Egyptians. I am not looking to bash any certain lines here just want opinions. SO be nice everyone. Thanks, Lisa

 

I'm quite busy so if I don't keep up with this topic please forgive.


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Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#2 JacqueB

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:36 PM

What I find often missing in the Arabian, not just SE, is the nice length of femur so you get a good stifle angle. 

I see pretty often a good length of pelvis and even the angle of the pelvis is working. 

There is much about this in threads on the SE.com and maybe even the beginning here on eb.com.

The other piece that is missing in the SE is the flexibility of the loin.  I don't know if that's because of the difference in the number of vertebra, but it's really much different(less) than many warmbloods.  But I don't know if you consider that part of the hind end action.  I would suggest that it has to do with soft tissue amount/attachment as much as bony structure of the vertebrae/pelvis.  I personally like alot of suspension at the trot, but dressage is my preference & I don't know that the Bedouins valued that attribute, it's not a "smooth" ride as such - I don't think endurance riders appreciate it.  But I look for it.

I've seen the Ibn Morafic get have good working hindends including good length of femur.  And I've seen that Ibn Morafic hindend influence even in his grandget.  They are very typey beautiful horses, too, that do well at the EE, 2 I can think of were reserve champions in halter.  Amiin +// he was reserve champion in his class, lost to Mishaal HP (who put on a really spectacular dressage trot).  Amiin has been working cow U.S. Top 10 several years in classes of 21,28 & 17 as well as Youth Nationals top ten.  Frank Sponle's mare, Bint Tasaqqara, she's a grey that is a Botswana dtr out of an Ibn Morafic mare, Tasaqqara, that cut cattle as well - the dam was terrific & all Botswana did was make her a bit prettier, but didn't take away from that dam's wonderful body/hindend - she was my favorite in the 2013 supreme mare championship.


Edited by JacqueB, 16 October 2013 - 02:51 PM.

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#3 maxhopemime

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:27 PM

Suspension! The Bedu praised it and glorified it in poem and story. I am old enough to remember when most arabs had it, and when the disparaging remarks about it started being voiced in the show ring...mainly perpetuated by the saddleseat crowd



#4 JacqueB

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

huh! shows how much I know!  Thanks Maxhopemime!  I'll just keep looking for it...


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#5 Phoenix

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:53 PM

Thank You Jacque for your insight, we share similar tastes in SE's.


Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#6 An American Breeder

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:27 PM

Going to mostly read here but will throw in this little tidbit:  The young woman that started Buddy as a 3 yr old last year thought he had a rough trot -- he has the suspension. 

 

Now I am wondering if endurance riders really do dislike suspension or not? 



#7 JacqueB

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:45 PM

I should look for that article about a vet who does endurance and I think he said something about not liking a big trot/suspension. 

I remember when I was interviewing a long time hunter rider trainer (non-Arab) who sold ponies/horses for $20,000 & up going green - he had a very specific type of trot he looked for - he called daisy cutter & specifically drew a demarcation of that not being the big dressage/suspension trot.  That suspension does really send you out of the saddle.  I'm not sure I know what each person means when they say rough trot.  But good suspension at the trot could definitely be one of the reasons if not the main reason.


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#8 Silvia

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

Attached File  ©Garten August 2013 1787.jpg   111.91KB   3 downloads

 

I like suspension - in Dressage and in Endurance up to 16-17 km/h; if I want to go faster i prefer to change into a controlled canter.

 

I know many international horses arab or non arab who do this kind of gait-horses-fast-trot. It´s may be successful, but I dont like it. I like a clear walk and a powerful and economic trott and galopp.

A good horse should be more than a "gait-salad-machine". It shoud go for Dressage, Show jumping, endurance and be a nice horse!

 

Just my opinion.

 

One time at the first endurance ride of my young stallion a vet made a joke and had fun with me: Do you know, why your horse trots so nice and powerful? (He asked me because my horse trots much faster than I was able to run). Because he can do! Was the answer.....

 

Regards Silvia

 

 


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#9 VanAlma

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

I think there tends to be a great variation in the hind ends. I'll take either a deep hip and/or a long hip. The short, shallow stuff doesn't do it for me. Now, I don't look for one particular kind like some folks do, I just look for ones that are functional - and that can be a real problem. Some concentrations of lines are bad for rear ends. In general, I like the Sameh and Anter and Kuhaylans for good rear ends. I do have a Saqlawi with a fantastic motor and her kids have it as well.

I also find lack of muscling can really be a problem as well. I like a horse with a good muscle system all over, but in SE's, that is not always the case and people call it "refinement", which I think is wrong.

There is also an issue with horses being way out behind. I don't mind it a little bit as long as the hip is big and strong, but I find it's often coupled with a shallow and weak hip. Not good. 

As for liking suspension, those trots are hard to ride for distances. Bubba has awesome suspension but when we're trail riding he has trotted me out of the saddle and I have to slow him down so I can ride better. There is no way I could ride that for long distances. The canter? Yes, suspension is great and makes that rocking horse canter, and I suspect that's what the Bedouins liked.

There is so much variation that one can find what they want. I just think people need to be careful not to excuse poor movement and call it a personal "preference". I've found some folks wouldn't know a good moving horse if it kicked them in the face...and I find that's often because they're too busy reading the pedigree to notice.


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#10 Phoenix

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:37 PM

Oh Kate, Love the "Too busy reading a pedigree" statement!

I have ridden numerous Arabians over the years and the best out of all of them for movement is one of my Moms mares named Raffonsabi she tails to Raffon, not SE. She is also Alpha mare of the herd. Dang don't have pic of her on this new computer.

Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#11 maxhopemime

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

The trot was not a gait used much by the bedu, most of the ground and distances covered while on horseback was done at a canter.

don't be fooled by a look of "lacking muscle", slender SE's have more slow twitch muscles and fibers as compared to a beefier one who has more fast twitch muscles and fibers.


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#12 maxhopemime

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

Out behind, as soon as I see it, I immediately look to the pelvis, and am not supprised to see it tilted, and a horse who can not get under it's self for real collection. In SE's you will see a tendency to sickle hocks, when not extreme coupled with correct pelvis/hip angulation I feel it isn't a detriment.

#13 JacqueB

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

Found it.  Here's the link for the vet talking about conformation related to endurance, she specifically addresses suspension.  She's like you Maxhopemime, not too concerned about mild sickle hocks. http://www.equisearc...e-conformation/


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#14 Ray

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

attachicon.gif©Garten August 2013 1787.jpg

 

I like suspension - in Dressage and in Endurance up to 16-17 km/h; if I want to go faster i prefer to change into a controlled canter.

 

I know many international horses arab or non arab who do this kind of gait-horses-fast-trot. It´s may be successful, but I dont like it. I like a clear walk and a powerful and economic trott and galopp.

A good horse should be more than a "gait-salad-machine". It shoud go for Dressage, Show jumping, endurance and be a nice horse!

 

Just my opinion.

 

One time at the first endurance ride of my young stallion a vet made a joke and had fun with me: Do you know, why your horse trots so nice and powerful? (He asked me because my horse trots much faster than I was able to run). Because he can do! Was the answer.....

 

Regards Silvia

That looks like a Serenity bred horse.  Very nice, in any case.  Love the humor - why does he do that?  Because he can!  LOL!  Good one!



#15 Ray

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:12 PM

My take on suspension is that Arabians can turn it on or off at their leisure - and can be taught to "bring it on" by the rider/handler.

 

Sickle hocks, in some degree, just come as part of the Arabian conformation.

 

Not sure what is meant by "poor" rear-ends, but the Dahman line through Halima seems to have what appears to me as "weak". The pelvis seems shorter and the croup perhaps more straight. "Weak" may be the wrong choice for describing what I see, as many can perform well. Some of the really old photos of desert-breds show this "feature", along with a lanky, angular looking frame with pronounced withers. I think of it as "old school" and it is something that Westerners can't quite accept as the "natural" look for Arabian horses.



#16 VanAlma

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

My take on suspension is that Arabians can turn it on or off at their leisure - and can be taught to "bring it on" by the rider/handler.

 

Sickle hocks, in some degree, just come as part of the Arabian conformation.

 

Not sure what is meant by "poor" rear-ends, but the Dahman line through Halima seems to have what appears to me as "weak". The pelvis seems shorter and the croup perhaps more straight. "Weak" may be the wrong choice for describing what I see, as many can perform well. Some of the really old photos of desert-breds show this "feature", along with a lanky, angular looking frame with pronounced withers. I think of it as "old school" and it is something that Westerners can't quite accept as the "natural" look for Arabian horses.

Ray, I agree that being camped out/sickle hocks is more prevalent in these lines, but is not a 100% in SE's and your Serenity-bred horses seem to be well underneath themselves, as are some other groups I have seen - but not all of them. Now a bit sickle hocked/camped out (same thing) is OK as long as the hip/loin/rear end can handle it. I have some that are a bit like that but have great butts, so I don't mind. I my opinion, it is something to worry about and avoid like the plague when the rear end is poor, or weak, or whatever you want to call it.

I also also agree about Halima lines being poor in the rear end. It really comes out when bred on top of itself.

As for lanky or angular - that doesn't bother me one bit. That's just aesthetics, IMO. Yeah, I like to look at those who are round and purty, but the "rangy" ones tend to be pretty athletic when the muscle system is there to support it.


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#17 JacqueB

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:48 PM

Had an idea which will require some cropping.  Use some fairly square on photos of horses that are currently doing something, endurance or working western or dressage or racing or eventing, jumping or hunter, etc. and crop that photo so just the back 1/2 of the horse is seen then find some photos of the tail female line or sireline or damline of the sire & crop those photos so the back 1/2 of the photo is seen - line 'em up like a pedigree. And since Ray brought up the topic of strain, name the strain or strains.  I don't have time to put that together at the moment but I'll work toward it.  Finding the square on photos will be the challenge.


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#18 jmarcan

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:59 AM

This is a very important discussion...here are two hind ends that have had a great deal of influence on SE lines. How do we start correcting this in closely bred stock...

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#19 DKZ

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

Before it can be corrected, people have to know conformation and what any given pedigree can produce.


Jarcan, I'm pretty sure I recognise the stallion's rear in your post and have thought about this many times.



#20 VanAlma

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

I think I know who the mare is - and one that is elevated as one of the best in SE breeding - and I completely disagree and don't care how pretty they said her head was. 

I am pretty sure I know who the stallion is, have 3 granddaughters, one of which was a hot mess in the rear end - waaaaaay worse than this - and the other 2 are functional but similar.

There are some breeders that avoid these lines for the reasons pictured above. 


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