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Lets Talk About Hind Ends.


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#21 An American Breeder

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 03:52 PM

There is one point no one so far has brought up and that is environment.  The EAO was having a hard time staying in existence and many/all? of the horses were at one time starving. 

 

Just a point to be remembered in how this would/could affect muscling.



#22 Ray

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

How often do you see that mare's rear end pop up?  I'd say her production down to today justifies the accolades. 


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#23 Phoenix

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:14 PM

Well this is getting interesting, lets keep it informative. I believe I know the photos posted. With that said what lines crossed worked to correct this all? Examples with photos would be great for all to view.

 

I would agree with many if not all of you, even with my own foundation mare. She needed help in her hind end and I choose a stallion who had excellent feet, legs and a good motor.  

 

I have been very pleased with Sameh and Anter on the dam line as well as Ramses Fayek and all the Serenity horses speak for themselves. A few years ago at the Event a Simeon bred stud was presented. This stud caught my eye with his rock solid body his name eludes me, do any of you remember him?


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Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#24 cauley

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:37 PM

Attached pics are all Moniet El Nefous tail female,all seem pretty good in the hind end.

Attached Files


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Sue www.hopefarmarabians.com

#25 Phoenix

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:18 PM

Hello Sue,

Thank you for the photos, I love your boy and he is a superb mover with an excellent hind end

 

. My foundation mares paternal 1/2 sister owned by my mother carries Moniet El Nefous  and both her son and her are excellent movers with great hind ends ( her son is better than her in that area), so I wouldn't bash this great mare.

 

Well gotta fly going apple picking with the Grandson.


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Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#26 DKZ

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:08 PM

This is a very important discussion...here are two hind ends that have had a great deal of influence on SE lines. How do we start correcting this in closely bred stock...

 

 


 

. My foundation mares paternal 1/2 sister owned by my mother carries Moniet El Nefous  and both her son and her are excellent movers with great hind ends ( her son is better than her in that area), so I wouldn't bash this great mare.

 

 

 

I don't really think it's so much bashing as pointing out that if not bred carefully this rear end can be very hard to breed out.  All horses have faults even every one of the imports, but if we don't admit the faults, we can't begin to work on them.  Even Sameh, as much as he seemed to throw athleticism, and I really like him in the pedigree but I don't like to see him in conjunction with certain other horse(s).


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#27 jmarcan

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:29 PM

Let me start by saying that I have the lines of both these horses in my own stock (tail female too actually) and am looking for outcross possibilities to improve hind ends...some horses with very nice hindquarters were posted above. Where do you think the genetic strength in the hind quarters comes from in these cases?

 

The point about feeding and musculature is interesting as well...there is a study on the Hannoverian breed that indicates that legs are only moderately heritable...and tend to be influenced more by intra-uterine and external environments more than many other skeletal characteristics...hope we can have a constructive discussion...


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#28 Ray

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:44 PM

Where does the genetic strength come from?  The last great desert-bred to come to the EAO - El Dere and his son, Sid Abouhom.

 

Attached File  El Deree.jpg   33.79KB   0 downloads  Attached File  sid abouhom.jpg   20.51KB   0 downloads


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#29 Heidi

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:45 PM

Well this is getting interesting, lets keep it informative. I believe I know the photos posted. With that said what lines crossed worked to correct this all? Examples with photos would be great for all to view.
 
I would agree with many if not all of you, even with my own foundation mare. She needed help in her hind end and I choose a stallion who had excellent feet, legs and a good motor.  
 
I have been very pleased with Sameh and Anter on the dam line as well as Ramses Fayek and all the Serenity horses speak for themselves. A few years ago at the Event a Simeon bred stud was presented. This stud caught my eye with his rock solid body his name eludes me, do any of you remember him?

SIMEON SOCHAIN

BINT SAFIERA 2000 Bay mare
SHAMS EL BINA 2002 Bay mare
NAKHDA AL SHAIB 2004 Grey Gelding<---- AL
SIHR JAWHER 2006 Bay Stallion
NADEERAH ALIAH 2006 Bay mare
ZAHRAN HAMRAH 2006 Grey mare
SHAMS FIDAT 2012 grey filly SKYLER the 1/2 Arabian pinto wonder horse


#30 Phoenix

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:27 AM

Had a great time with the Grandson!

 

Thank You all for the comments, and thanks for that studs name Heidi. 

 

I feel true breeders admit the faults in their bloodstock and I applaud those who do. 

 

So all lets see photos of those hind ends, 


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Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#31 Ray

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:00 AM

Another source of great genetics is Kheir, sire of breed notables such as *Mamdouha, *Fadell, Malaka, Gassir, Maysouna.

 

Attached File  kheir.jpg   76.42KB   1 downloads

 

A Malaka granddaughter:

 

Attached File  s_bintmamlouka.jpg   94.29KB   0 downloads

 

Another Malaka tail-female: SERENITY IBNKHOFO

 

Attached File  S_Ibn_Khofo3.jpg   40.5KB   0 downloads


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#32 JacqueB

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:24 AM

case study

sire line AIH-granddaughter, so pretty close

tf line-Nabilahh

has Nabiel on damside & Sakr twice on damside

I thought this mare was light boned, but when I measured she was 7 inches, so adequate.

Attached File  2009-6-29 herdbook hind ends.jpg   54.04KB   0 downloads

 

Here is her Thee Infidel dtr - Nabilahh is TD tf line & a Bint Magidaa son so Nabilahh thru her sire's (Khofo) dam.

3 days old

Attached File  hind end 3 days.jpg   148.09KB   0 downloads

almost 2 yr old-21mo

Attached File  21 mo-11-09 web5 backend-Hallie.jpg   69.74KB   0 downloads

4 yo

Attached File  IMG_0086n4-hind end.jpg   233.56KB   0 downloads

 

Both the dam & the dtr had good suspension at the trot. 

The hunter trainer that rode the dtr for almost a year said, too much suspension for hunter movement.  Her canter was her best gait - the trainer thought it was one of the finest canters she had ridden.  Neither of these horses had good withers & both found lifting their backs hard to do. 

How the dtr was different:

much more size in muscling as well as substantially more bone

longer cannons - a problem for TD lines, but not wide at the hocks, also seen in TD lines

This dtr offers to breeding an excellent length & angle of pelvis.  Good femur length (could still be improved) strong thru the loin & good size hocks/joints/bone.

The dtrs increase in bone could have come thru her dam's maternal side (Mgdam-15.3 out of 16 h sire) and/or Thee Infidel who throws consistently increased bone/muscling & size.

The 2 horses that are found most commonly in the dtr's pedigree are Nabilahh, an Antar dtr & Mabrouka, who I consider MEN best dtr, dam of Morafic & a Sid Abouhom dtr.

when I get a chance I'll do my other mare who has more suspension at the trot than either of these mares.  might be next week.

 

 

 


JacqueB

#33 Phoenix

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

 Thanks Jacque,

Very educational. I have a new computer and haven't moved any files of photo's yet. ( sorry all you need to give me some time.)


Rising Phoenix Arabians is located in beautiful Chester Mass. U.S.A. in the foothills of the Berkshire's.
http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com



We are A family dedicated to breeding our Arabians for performance and family enjoyment. Our Arabians are full of type, kindness, versatility, excellent temperament, athleticism and noble intelligence with World Class proven pedigree's. Feel free to contact us anytime, Sincerely Stephen W. Piispanen, Lisa M.Piispanen, Karina E. Piispanen & our grandson Noah Alenander.

We have 5 Arabian mares, our 2 Straight Egyptian mares are listed below.

MB Zareena ( Safeen X AK Shezara)- Dam of two superb Straight Egyptian foals. Dam of numerous X's SHIH Champion Straight Egyptian Stallion Amir Al Ahlam. "Amir" is doing excellent in his new home and competes in many open shows against all breeds. We are pleased to say he is an EXCELLENT performance stallion!  Amir will be doing his first Hunter Pace this coming weekend.

Ali's Zaafinah ( Achaean Ali X MB Zareena)- Dam of Bashyr Ali Safeen, Top Ten Egyptian Event colt.






http://risingphoenixarabians.webs.com BLACK PUREBRED COMING 4yr. OLD DOMESTIC BRED, ( HAS HIGH % EGYPTIAN) FILLY OFFERED FROM RISING PHOENIX ARABAINS.


#34 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

Out behind, as soon as I see it, I immediately look to the pelvis, and am not supprised to see it tilted, and a horse who can not get under it's self for real collection. In SE's you will see a tendency to sickle hocks, when not extreme coupled with correct pelvis/hip angulation I feel it isn't a detriment.

 

:mellow: 

I understand the suggestion but it's the terminology which is all wrong.  Got to love Bennett's work for going into detail on lengths; proportions and associated abilities.


cheers, diane
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Is there an elephant in the room?

#35 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

<snipped>

Not sure what is meant by "poor" rear-ends, but the Dahman line through Halima seems to have what appears to me as "weak". The pelvis seems shorter and the croup perhaps more straight. "Weak" may be the wrong choice for describing what I see, as many can perform well. Some of the really old photos of desert-breds show this "feature", along with a lanky, angular looking frame with pronounced withers. I think of it as "old school" and it is something that Westerners can't quite accept as the "natural" look for Arabian horses.

 

generalisations :sleep:  Dahman through Halima - yep, I've got them and there ain't nothing "weak" about them at all. 

 

That natural look, yes, I'd agree with that.  Westerners are too busy looking for perfection (but, you'll know that already!).  There were different types and combinations in the foundation horses.

 

If interested, Equus November 2013 issue has a feature on Secretariat.  Bennett does a comparison of Phar Lap, Man O War and Secretariat in her article - The Secret of Secretariat's Speed.  Interesting.


cheers, diane
Agecroft, Australia


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#36 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:37 PM

Before it can be corrected, people have to know conformation and what any given pedigree can produce.


 

 

Does it need correcting?


cheers, diane
Agecroft, Australia


Is there an elephant in the room?

#37 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:38 PM

This is a very important discussion...here are two hind ends that have had a great deal of influence on SE lines. How do we start correcting this in closely bred stock...

 

:D can one be as critical about the humans as well?


cheers, diane
Agecroft, Australia


Is there an elephant in the room?

#38 Morabene

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

So would you all consider these weak or poor butts?

Attached File  IMG_1744.JPG   14.17KB   0 downloads another view

Attached File  IMG_1748.JPG   22.06KB   0 downloads

Attached File  2AFC2630.JPG   21.53KB   0 downloads

 


Martha White
www.classicbloodstock.com

#39 JacqueB

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:38 PM

I can't comment on the last one because the photo angle doesn't allow you to see the hip really.  The second photo.

Let me refer you to this link http://www.equisearc...e-hindquarters/

Even tho' the pelvis length looks maybe shortish the angle is quite sharp really allowing that leg to be moved forward given the soft tissue is set up to work it.  Also the angle of the croup follows fairly well the angle of the pelvis & because the tailset comes low is fairly long.  What this photo does not demonstrate is a long femur to push that stifle into good angulation which would limit high end collected work that FEI dressage would require and maybe longish cannons contribute to the configuration.  There doesn't look to be natural strength in the loin & depending on the withers this horse would need plenty of time to develop strength over the topline.  But that's a working back end until you get into challenging collected work.


JacqueB

#40 VanAlma

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

I like how deep those hips are. The grey especially is very underneath him/herself and probably has great propulsion. Can't tell as much about the bay. I have mare that looks JUST like the grey and, while she isn't the best with articulation, she can run and jump up a storm and does not have strength issues. Again, she could use some flexibility through the rear end but makes up for it in global ability. Again, IMO, as long as there is either length or depth, there is usually function. When there is neither quality is when trouble arises.

ETA - Just read the post above mine. I also tend to like horses like Jacquie likes, so see a potential detriment in dressage-work, but don't see an overall lack of function if not required to do that kind of work.


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