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Lets Talk About Hind Ends.


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#41 Morabene

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:53 PM

Both of these horses are in poor condition in these photos. but the bone structure can be seen. Both are very athletic and powerful

 

A few photos of the grey with conditioning

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#42 JacqueB

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:09 PM

You can see in the first photos of the grey how that leg can really swing forward as demonstrated in the left photo just above.  The conditioning really helps that loin look promising.  You see the DAP in that left photo also.  For dressage this horse staying sound one could speculate that going thru 4th level would be doable.  Moving into FEI is where the short femur length would create difficulties going forward.  I think about Secretariat & how he had that great length & angle to his pelvis which attributed to his great speed (as well as his special heart).  This mare's back end reminds me of Secretariat - built for speed.  might be next week before I get to look the Equus article, that'll be interesting.  Pretty grey.


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#43 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

So would you all consider these weak or poor butts?

attachicon.gifIMG_1744.JPG another view

attachicon.gifIMG_1748.JPG

attachicon.gif2AFC2630.JPG

when looking at hindquarters, it's good to see them in relation to the whole body ie what proportion to the body (length from point of buttock to point of shoulder) is the length of the pelvis (from point of hip to point of buttock).  This ratio, in connection with the length of the loin and subsequent depth of body will be the first suggestion as to the capability of the horse ie is the motor and transmission substantial enough. 

 

The next review should be from behind - what are the angles of the major joints and the lie of the bones in the hindquarter.

 

The next review should be the height of the hindquarter to withers.

 

This type of overview should be reasonably quick.

 

If everything is in alignment for that individual without interference, then that's ok. 

 

There shouldn't be a need to squeeze an individual into a box of perfection on every single attribute as well as a whole, then ask it to be capable of doing everything.

 

With the grey, the first shot, the pelvis, the major hindquarter bone structures and joints are visible because the leg closest to the camera is in motion (joints are bent).


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#44 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:34 PM

Body analysis

 

 

1powerx.jpg  0jointsx.jpg1depthx.jpg

 

3hipstiflex.jpg


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#45 diane

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:38 PM

Proportion of the hindquarters compared to the overall body length

35% or more equals excellent

Between 35% and 33% equals good

Between 33% and 29% equals average

Below 29% equals poor

 

1powerx.jpg this individual has an approximate 31.7% hindquarter - body ratio.


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#46 shall

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:55 PM

I think the other thing you want to see are low set on hocks for more power, and a well set on SI. Here are what I look at on a day to day basis. No, none have a table top croup. They are all related.

 

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Sakher+ 2009 HAHR/RPSI gelding, Sinatra Song x Anabelle EFS
     Region 11 2014 SHUS and Training Level Champion
Anabelle EFS 2004 SE mare, Shahir IASB x Thee Debutante
Khidron 2001 SE gelding, Hawkeye CC x Lady Minstril

#47 diane

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:55 AM

:)  information for thought and more importantly, reflection regarding the foundations of the Breed.

 

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snippets from the Equus article (Nov 2013)

 

 


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#48 diane

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:29 AM

an interesting table with in the article re growth - weanling to maturity

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#49 Ray

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:32 AM

I see some photos of horses at stand-up halter with mention of "conditioning".  What kind of conditioning are you all talking about here?



#50 Morabene

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:24 PM

Real work. Not jogging behind a golf cart or on a treadmill walking at an angle. But you can fatten them up to cover up that chest with a fat belly/flank for halter too.


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#51 Aimbri

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:18 PM

This is a photo of El Matrabb (Al Metrabbi++ x Ana Gayah by *Morafic) from 1996, aged 9 years.  He was shown in halter, native costume, country english pleasure and show hack.  I loved his strong hip and shoulder.  


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#52 Aimbri

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:20 PM

Sorry . . . HERE is the photo of El Matrabb

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Aimbri Arabians
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All horses at Aimbri Arabians are SE and AK, and all mares and stallions are LFS, CA and SCID Tested Clear!
Colt:

Aimbri El Kaream (REA El Kaream+ x Tal Imdal by Imperial Imdal+) 2013 grey colt LFS, CA and SCID tested Clear.

Mares:

Tammens Nadira (Tammen x ADH Nadafe by Shukri) 1995 Bay  
Aimbri Ansarah (Aseffa Moniet by Rasmoniet RSI x Zahara Basharah by Ramses Maris) 1996 Bay
MB Faheena (Safeen x AK Bint Fatiha by Moniet El Sharaf) 1997 Ches. 
Aimbri Amira Matrabb (El Matrabb x Dorian Mon Amie by AK Na Moniet) 1998 Ches/Flax 
Aimbri Zaafinah (Moon Sheine x Aimbri Ansarah) 2004 Ches/Flaxen 
Aimbri Amurra (Moon Sheine x MB Faheena) 2005 Ches. SOLD!
Aimbri Fawzia (Moon Sheine x Tammens Nadira) 2005 Ches/Flaxen
Aimbri Zakirah (Moon Sheine x Aimbri Ansarah) 2006 Bay SOLD!
Aimbri Amira Alia (Moon Sheine x MB Faheena) 2006 Ches/Flaxen
Aimbri Bint Bint Matrabb (Moon Sheine x Aimbri Amira Matrabb) 2011 Ches.

2 SE/AK Sweepstakes Nominated Chestnut Geldings by El Matrabb  SOLD! $
Aimbri Emir Hilal (Moon Sheine x Aimbri Amira Matrabb by El Matrabb) 2007 Ches. $


#53 Bay Mare Farm

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:46 PM

Krown Princess ( ET Crown Prince x *Ramses Sadaka - Seef )

 

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Stallion:

Zandai Nile Zavon - (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Nile Aziza)

Zandai Issar (*Ansata Ken Rashik x Zandai Zenobia-El Hadiyyah)

Mares:

Krown Princess - (ET Crown Prince x *Ramses Sadaka -Seef)

Bint Maar Juahariel (El Halimaar x Maar Juahariel -Ansata Halim Shah)

Azerii Maar Malak (Richter MH x Maar Juahariel -Ansata Halim Shah)

Zandai Om Zahra (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Zenobia -El Hadiyyah)

Sha Ameera (Anwars Ameer x Sha IQ- ZT Faa IQ)

Tess Trueheart (Prince of The Nile x Moss Hill Sabah)

Gelding:

Zandai Mahfouz (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Zenobia -El Hadiyyah)

#54 Bay Mare Farm

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:56 PM

Attached File  Zandai Mahfouz paddock 2.jpg   174.76KB   0 downloads  Zandai Mahfouz

 

Attached File  Zavon pad 4.jpg   144.15KB   0 downloads Zandai Nile Zavon

 

Attached File  Zahra pad 3.jpg   702.4KB   0 downloads Zandai Om Zahra


Billy Williams & Paul Keel

Bay Mare Farm

Stallion:

Zandai Nile Zavon - (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Nile Aziza)

Zandai Issar (*Ansata Ken Rashik x Zandai Zenobia-El Hadiyyah)

Mares:

Krown Princess - (ET Crown Prince x *Ramses Sadaka -Seef)

Bint Maar Juahariel (El Halimaar x Maar Juahariel -Ansata Halim Shah)

Azerii Maar Malak (Richter MH x Maar Juahariel -Ansata Halim Shah)

Zandai Om Zahra (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Zenobia -El Hadiyyah)

Sha Ameera (Anwars Ameer x Sha IQ- ZT Faa IQ)

Tess Trueheart (Prince of The Nile x Moss Hill Sabah)

Gelding:

Zandai Mahfouz (Zandai Ibn Omar x Zandai Zenobia -El Hadiyyah)

#55 diane

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:16 PM

Hansi, I took some measurements of my own :)  back in 2007 (27 May)

 

DoB              Name        Height   Girth    Flank (both in inches)

Oct 2000      Olympia    14.2 hh  64"      62"

Nov 1999      Etosha     15.1 hh  67"      71" (I'm riding Etosha in my avatar)

Nov 1998      Sirina       14.2 hh  67"      66"

Oct 2004       Sidra       14.1hh   66"       63"

Oct 2006      Layla        12.2hh   52"       51"

Nov 1998      Fahraj      15.1hh   69 1/2"   66"

 

Height was approx back then as I didn't have the aluminium measuring stick I have now.

 

Photos from different years:

Sirina

Sirina%20Ghayl%202%20Jan%2011.jpg

 

Sidra

sidra071.jpg

 

Layla (with Etosha ridden in the background), Olympia's dam in the middle.

post-348-0-10721700-1366201489_thumb.jpg

 

Olympia

Olympia3trot.jpg

 

Fahraj

Fahraj.jpg


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cheers, diane
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#56 DKZ

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:26 PM


 

Not sure what is meant by "poor" rear-ends, but the Dahman line through Halima seems to have what appears to me as "weak". The pelvis seems shorter and the croup perhaps more straight. "Weak" may be the wrong choice for describing what I see, as many can perform well. Some of the really old photos of desert-breds show this "feature", along with a lanky, angular looking frame with pronounced withers. I think of it as "old school" and it is something that Westerners can't quite accept as the "natural" look for Arabian horses.

 

 

Another source of great genetics is Kheir, sire of breed notables such as *Mamdouha, *Fadell, Malaka, Gassir, Maysouna.

 

attachicon.gifkheir.jpg

 

A Malaka granddaughter:

 

attachicon.gifs_bintmamlouka.jpg

 

Another Malaka tail-female: SERENITY IBNKHOFO

 

attachicon.gifS_Ibn_Khofo3.jpg

 

Here are 4 rears in my herd.  Two are half sisters on the sire's side (an El Hilal son who is 18.25% Halima (both his Sire and Dam are sireline AIH)

 

The Bay's with white markings Dam is a little over 9% Halima also with her sire being Abraxas Halimaar.

 

The solid bay and the Grey are 1/2 sisters on the Dam's side (Babolna/Serenity/Egyptian Prince bred).  With the Bay's sire being a El Mareekh grandson.

 

All move fairly well, and have excellent bone, but the grey and the bay with white have a little better movement.  They both have immense power to their trot, just like a freight train.  The solid bay has a powerful trot also but not quite as good.  Her hip is also a little shorter than the other two.  Her sire's tail female is Malaka through Hekmat.  All three have long, laid back shoulders so that isn't an issue in the stride.  As expected the two sisters on the sire's side are considerably shorter in height than the solid bay who is well over 15H.

 

Then, the last time I bred the solid bay, when I was looking for a stallion I was hoping I would find one tail female Malaka (he was also TF Malaka through Nazeera) and also added some more Babolna and improved again on the hip and movement (the greying filly).  I think Ray has brought up a good point in that Kheir may be fairly influential generations down.

 

Sorry for the quality of  the pictures, and I know most are at an angle.  I shouldn't be allowed to operate a camera.
 

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#57 hansi

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

Here are 4 rears in my herd.  Two are half sisters on the sire's side (an El Hilal son who is 18.25% Halima (both his Sire and Dam are sireline AIH)

 

The Bay's with white markings Dam is a little over 9% Halima also with her sire being Abraxas Halimaar.

 

The solid bay and the Grey are 1/2 sisters on the Dam's side (Babolna/Serenity/Egyptian Prince bred).  With the Bay's sire being a El Mareekh grandson.

 

All move fairly well, and have excellent bone, but the grey and the bay with white have a little better movement.  They both have immense power to their trot, just like a freight train.  The solid bay has a powerful trot also but not quite as good.  Her hip is also a little shorter than the other two.  Her sire's tail female is Malaka through Hekmat.  All three have long, laid back shoulders so that isn't an issue in the stride.  As expected the two sisters on the sire's side are considerably shorter in height than the solid bay who is well over 15H.

 

Then, the last time I bred the solid bay, when I was looking for a stallion I was hoping I would find one tail female Malaka (he was also TF Malaka through Nazeera) and also added some more Babolna and improved again on the hip and movement (the greying filly).  I think Ray has brought up a good point in that Kheir may be fairly influential generations down.

 

Sorry for the quality of  the pictures, and I know most are at an angle.  I shouldn't be allowed to operate a camera.
 

Thanks for the nice photos. lso thanks for the flank/girth comprison. Here you can see the problems. Etosha-15,1HH girth should be 72 inches at least.Girth should be at least 6 inches deeper than the flanks.

 

Time ago in Europe, horses were measured and went into the ring with such for final judging.

 

Hansi


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#58 Phoenixx

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

I am really enjoying reading the posts on this discussion.  Could any of you recommend some good books or other sources of information that I could learn even more from regarding conformation and such?


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#59 Ray

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:45 PM

Here are 4 rears in my herd.  Two are half sisters on the sire's side (an El Hilal son who is 18.25% Halima (both his Sire and Dam are sireline AIH)

 

The Bay's with white markings Dam is a little over 9% Halima also with her sire being Abraxas Halimaar.

 

The solid bay and the Grey are 1/2 sisters on the Dam's side (Babolna/Serenity/Egyptian Prince bred).  With the Bay's sire being a El Mareekh grandson.

 

All move fairly well, and have excellent bone, but the grey and the bay with white have a little better movement.  They both have immense power to their trot, just like a freight train.  The solid bay has a powerful trot also but not quite as good.  Her hip is also a little shorter than the other two.  Her sire's tail female is Malaka through Hekmat.  All three have long, laid back shoulders so that isn't an issue in the stride.  As expected the two sisters on the sire's side are considerably shorter in height than the solid bay who is well over 15H.

 

Then, the last time I bred the solid bay, when I was looking for a stallion I was hoping I would find one tail female Malaka (he was also TF Malaka through Nazeera) and also added some more Babolna and improved again on the hip and movement (the greying filly).  I think Ray has brought up a good point in that Kheir may be fairly influential generations down.

 

Sorry for the quality of  the pictures, and I know most are at an angle.  I shouldn't be allowed to operate a camera.
 

LOL!  I have the same trouble with camera shots.  By the way, I have a pretty bay colt that will be a gelding soon if nobody wants a stallion.  Tail female Malaka through *Fawkia. :)   He is also a Ruminaja Ali grandson on the sire line, Imperial Saturn grandson on the dam's side - and some other good stuff.  Ali Saturn TMR is his name and here are a couple of my camera shots - a couple/three years ago, or so.  

 

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#60 diane

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 10:47 PM

Thanks for the nice photos. lso thanks for the flank/girth comprison. Here you can see the problems. Etosha-15,1HH girth should be 72 inches at least.Girth should be at least 6 inches deeper than the flanks.

 

Time ago in Europe, horses were measured and went into the ring with such for final judging.

 

Hansi

That's just it, Hansi ~ the girth does not need to be be deeper than the flank.  It really does depend on the individual's body type.  With Etosha, her flank is matching or better because she's deep all the way through - her flank measurement took in her substance as well.  She, along with the others of mine, have the correct angles for themselves as individuals to move without interference.  Not only without interference but extremely well.  Etosha, in particular, having completed endurance rides. When she is in her full trot - other horses had to slow canter to keep pace and that was over a few kilometres along a dirt road. I'm yet to find Fahraj's full potential, though a rider who trained with Nuno Oliveria was very impressed with his abilities in the arena under saddle.  She was most impressed with his trot cadence.  Unfortunately, in his first endurance ride he lost his shoes (we were trialling glue on shoes) and I restrained his gaits accordingly.

 

A lanky horse on the other hand - could go the measurements you are suggesting because being longer through the body, they are most likely longer through the loin and therefore narrower in the flank.  Hence the girth being deeper (bigger) than the flank.  The loin/flank region is totally unsupported other than transverse muscles.  A horse couldn't be deep in the flank if they are a longer individual.  It wouldn't be natural.  The longer the body, the narrower the flank.  I've observed this in various breeds and the Arabian isn't an exception.

 

Hansi, the notion you are suggesting is a standardisation.  Horses should never be standardised.  Naturally, they work with what they are born with in regards to body type (including hindquarters) to the best of their abilities.  Hoping that the breeder bred a sound individual.  Hoof trimming is probably one of the most standardised practises and it can have such a drastic effect on performance ability of an individual if not done with the individual in mind.  Essentially, a good hindquarter is only as good as a farrier's talents. Be it a qualified farrier or a home trimmer!


cheers, diane
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