81 replies to this topic

[VanAlma]

I have long been a fan of Sultann lines, but Sakr does not seem to garner much praise except for when he's noted as a sire in a pedigree. I have read he was never considered a sire of significance and am wondering who truly knows why. This horse won numerous national titles in English/Park/Halter all in the same era as Huckleberry Bey, Cognac, Bask, Aramus, Al Marah Canadius ... the list goes ON and he is in them. He did produce Nabiel - a horse that we all know influenced the Arabian breed as a whole and not just SE's, but really doesn't have any other truly "famous" get. I find this a shame as many SE's today aren't shown in the mainstream Arabian performance ring (of course some of the change in the English divisions has to do with the "back of the barn" breeding) ... I digress... but I feel horses like Sakr are what we are missing in our modern SE's. Screw the halter perfection - he was an athlete and a proven competetor over and over. Was he simply poorly bred/managed or was he a poor breeder? I can't seem to find that anywhere!

[SimplyArabians]

I would have to agree with you and would love to read the opinions of others on this!

[Aimbri]

Sakr+++ was owned for almost all of his life by Gleannloch Farms, so I can't see that he would be poorly managed, however he was on the show string and not home breeding mares as the others were.  And keep in mind, they had a LOT of famous stallions.  Gamal Al Arab+++ was another stallion that was shown a lot by Gleannloch, and not used for breeding that much.

Like all of you, I would like to know the reasons, but the Marshalls are gone, as is Tom McNair.  I was fortunate enough to see and work briefly with both of these stallions while on a trip to Texas many years ago in 1995.  Sakr+++ was at that time quite aged, and was at that time sterile, but was still full of spunk and KNEW that he was the main attraction for the visitors.  I was VERY impressed with Gamal Al Arab+++.  What a wonderful temperament he had when I was there.  Very athletic and still was in great shape despite being 20, looking MUCH younger than his years.

[tstormwing]

Personally, I consider him a significant sire.  And wonder why, except through Nabiel, you don't seen the lines much.

HOWEVER, I will say, and this is mostly at a remove... I have heard very bad things about the *Sultannn line temper.  Stories abound about vicious behavior from both *Sultannn and his other famous (and rarely seen) son, *Asadd.  I have stories from people who worked for Chauncey about the drawing of straws as to who had to take *Asadd out of his stall...  I'm not sure how much of this is true, how much is campfire tale... But I have heard it from more than one person, at very different times.

Regarding Nabiel... I have his blood in my lines (and, therefore, *Sakr and *Sultannn).  I do like to see it.  But the horses that I have handled with this blood have always been very "reactive".  Getting in any sort of argument with them, or trying to move too quickly into something new, can have Very Bad Results, both immediately and in the future.  There is very little foregiveness.

It is also something that they seem to "grow out of", although I'm personally not sure exactly when.  A Nabiel daughter I met as a young horse was very aggressive in pasture situations with humans, and I was warned about her behavior by the owner who was concerned about visitors getting hurt.  I ran across the same mare many years later... Geez... Might actually be you, (SimplyArabians?)... Bluewater Indigo.  She was a much reformed girl by the time she reached her late teens and 20's, or so I was told.

Perhaps it was simply that the athleticism was there, but the attendant personality and "fire" wasn't what trainers and owners really wanted to deal with on a day to day basis.  I mean... If you say "Straight Egyptian" to performance trainers, they tend to tuck their tails and find someone else to direct you to.  It isn't that the horse isn't athletic (I've never been told any of my horses aren't athletic), but there is a strong bias to the "trainability" of the SEs.  I've found it easier to have a meeting with the trainer where they can see the horse before I ever drop a pedigree.

Until I owned horses with *Ibn Hafiza up close in their lines, I was actually thinking it had to do with Sameh.  I have (or have owned) 3 mares with Nabiel blood in them, one with *Asadd, and three plus a colt with Sameh through *Ibn Hafiza (and one other Egyptian-related mare with Sameh through *Serenity Bint Nadia).  Without a doubt, the Nabiel and *Asadd mares have to be handled with kid gloves, or things can quickly go "KABOOM!!"  The *Ibn Hafiza horses are much more laid back about things, although they have very strong opinions, and are much easier to work with.

In my opinion only.

I'm also going to be watching this thread to see what others have experienced!

Kimberley

[sgarabians]

SimplyArabians, on May 5 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

I would have to agree with you and would love to read the opinions of others on this!

DITTO for me too. In my reading it would hard to find something else SE that could match that boy for performance - and yet his line does not SEEM to have been popular according to popular advertiseing etc. Or have his progeny gone into smaller studs where they are actively being treasured and bred on but perhaps not actively promoted? I'd be very interested to hear about that. We cannot have too much Sameh line blood IMO these days....

best regards
David

Attached Files

•  SAKR_and_Tom_McNair.jpg   153.24K   7 downloads
•  sakr.jpg   36.72K   3 downloads

[Ray]

Well, let's dust off some Sakr balls, I mean kids, and see what we have.      Round about 112 offspring.  Two standouts - Nabiel+/ and Sugaa++/.  The majority of his offspring did breed on and several were exported.  Somebody must have liked his get.  The first were born in 1971, the last in 1987 - so it's been a while...

[VanAlma]

I have heard the same thing about Sultann lines being terrible. I had mare with a 3rd generation line to Asaad who was an ANGEL - but was almost 50% Babson, so I know where that came from. I have a Thee Atticus Grandson out of an Asaad graddaughter who has an amazing temperment - but again The Minstril temperment might over-ride that. I also have a Parys LDV son (2 crosses to Sultann) who is not Mr. Social with people he doesn't know, can be reactive but isn't aggressive or mean. He is also out of an Imperial Saturn dtr so that could have undone the Sultann damage as well. Who knows ... a lot of "behavioral" issues that have been reported are from people/trainers/handlers who stall their horses 24 hours a day and then wonder why the horse is a miserable mess. Still, I do take it into consideration. I could see that being an issue as, if you want a high powered show horse, it needs to be able to handle stress and confinement well.
Keep it coming people!

[VanAlma]

Windczar - please commet. You've got an amazing bunch of Sultann lines!!!!!!!!

[Ray]

Serenity El Hajar (sire of those two fillies I posted) is out of a Sultan granddaughter, *Bint Sania.  He also has plenty of Morafic .  No man-eater or other temperment issues with him.  Don't get me wrong, he's got his eye on the ball at all times, but hasn't pulled a dangerous or stupid stunt since I've had him.  Here's the Sultan daughter, Sania.

 Sania.jpg   68.67K   4 downloads

I don't have any pics of *Bint Sania.  Maybe Hansi has some info on Sultan.

p.s. This may be a Judi Parks photo - sorry, I don't remember for sure..

[JacqueB]

At the 1st National breeders conference put on by the Pyramid society in 2007, Steve Diamond presented the Glennloch program and I asked him about Sakr in the audience and he said that he was inconsistent - I took that to mean that he never produced get that had consistent quality.  So you couldn't count on the qualities that made him a good horse to come thru for you in the breeding shed.  Kind of like the great race horse that has holes in his pedigree, but he himself is uniquely great, the horses that came in 2nd or 3rd might have more consistent winners in their pedigrees and be better breeding stallions - produce get that are good race horses.

[Pete]

 Alia_Khala_Hafisa.jpg   107.24K   1 downloadsTom used to bring a bunch of closely related Sakr girls to the EE and EEWest and all were dream girls. I have an Abenhetep (Ibn Hafisa x Omnia) daughter out of a Sakr daughter (Sultani) and she is a sweetheart. Photo of her and her Rahima daughter shown.

The country music singer Lynn Anderson dearly loved Sakr and always rode him while singing at the EE. He was a sweety. Lynn was given an SE gelding at one of the shows. She is a class act. Tom and Patrick Swayse rode Sakr at some of the late 90's EE 's. Tom was given Sakr by the Marshalls at about that time. Every one of the people mentioned were class acts. I need to get out my Super 8 videos and get them transferred to CD.

[WindCzar]

VanAlma, on May 4 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

Windczar - please commet. You've got an amazing bunch of Sultann lines!!!!!!!!

  Just got here.   Let's see......

All of our horses now, and most in the past have been close up multiple lines to *Sultann, including *Sakr and *Asadd.  Of course, I'm not a big trainer, heck I'm not even a little trainer, so I can't speak from that aspect.  But as someone who has bred these horses and handled them from the day they were born I know you can not find a more trainable, intelligent, willing horse anywhere.  I have pictures on this forum that says a lot about that.  The stallion in my avatar hugging my granddaughter is close up double *Sultann.  That is Alex he is hugging.  When he had his own 2 acre pasture and would be on the other side of the hill, if Alex stood by the barn, where he couldn't see her, and called him in her little 4 year old voice, he would come trotting all the way up to her.  She would say "Hugs, hugs.", throw her arms out and he walked into them and huged her while she hugged him.  He has given other grandchildren, too young to walk yet, a place on his back to sit out in the pasture with no halter on him.  I've had him since he was weaned when I picked him up from Kehilan Arabians.  He's also the easiest stallion to breed to a mare I've ever owned and don't believe they come any better.  Another plus with him is he seems to know when a mare settles and then he is no longer interested, rather they are still in heat or not.  And he's been right every time.  He has two colts bred by me that have been trained and riden by very young teenagers in jumping, and cross country eventing.  And another one, Nuke, who is doing very well in endurance.

On the thread:  "Horses and kids, anyone got some good pic's" are other pics of some of my *Sultann (double, triple and close-up) bred horses with our grandchildren.  Sera, besides being a *Sultann granddaughter is triple *Sultann, and I can crawl all over her, under her, and she will do anything I ask of her even in the dark.  I've worried about buying other bloodlines and them possibly not being as well mannered and good tempered as my *Sultann horses.  Another thing, these horses tend to be very loyal too.  Plus everybody (that I know of) who has bought one of them from me loves them soooo much.  A lot of them keep in touch with me and give me updates on them, which words cannot say how much I appreciate that and love getting them.  They send me pictures and I am soooo very proud of them.  There are a lot of good people still out there; and a lot of good *Sultann bred horses.

[SE Legacy]

VanAlma, on May 5 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

I have heard the same thing about Sultann lines being terrible. I had mare with a 3rd generation line to Asaad who was an ANGEL - but was almost 50% Babson, so I know where that came from. I have a Thee Atticus Grandson out of an Asaad graddaughter who has an amazing temperment - but again The Minstril temperment might over-ride that. I also have a Parys LDV son (2 crosses to Sultann) who is not Mr. Social with people he doesn't know, can be reactive but isn't aggressive or mean. He is also out of an Imperial Saturn dtr so that could have undone the sultann damage as well. Who knows ... a lot of "behavioral" issues that have been reported are from people/trainers/handlers who stall their horses 24 hours a day and then wonder why the horse is a miserable mess. Still, I do take it into consideration. I could see that being an issue as, if you want a high powered show horse, it can't be upset becuase it is handled like a piece of meat.
Keep it coming people!

I have not heard this about Sultann lines. I have two Nabiel granddaughers here out of different sires and one is a Sultann g-daughter from her dam's side. Neither are reactive and both seem consistent and level headed. One I just got a couple of days ago so I don't have a lot of experience yet with her -- but so far so good!

[1rider]

I had a Sultann son, was able to get one mare in foal due in 10 days.. I also have a Nabiel granddaughter( new her mother well)... Yes there temperament is different, there not pushovers but never had any bad attitudes either. Also have found the Sultann line tough to breed, have to have a real good eye, hes not going to throw a typey  little head on everthing.. but bone feet and a hardiness that was there.. Ak Khaleem was outr of a Sultann daughter and found him very similar. I  really like the line.Ken

[SE Legacy]

1rider, on May 5 2009, 05:41 AM, said:

I had a Sultann son, was able to get one mare in foal due in 10 days.. I also have a Nabiel granddaughter( new her mother well)... Yes there temperament is different, there not pushovers but never had any bad attitudes either. Also have found the Sultann line tough to breed, have to have a real good eye, hes not going to throw a typey  little head on everthing.. but bone feet and a hardiness that was there.. Ak Khaleem was outr of a Sultann daughter and found him very similar. I  really like the line.Ken

When you found the Sultann line difficult to breed, did you overcome the difficulties and how? The mare i have is a Sultann g-daughter 12, a maiden mare and was bred a couple of years ago, as I understand it, and did not get in foal. My understanding was that it was a more casual attempt -- but any suggestions just in case would be welcomed.

[1rider]

Sorry when i meant difficult to breed i meant in outcome not actual conception.. they just didnt   cross with everything..Ken

[SimplyArabians]

tstormwing, on May 4 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Personally, I consider him a significant sire.  And wonder why, except through Nabiel, you don't seen the lines much.

HOWEVER, I will say, and this is mostly at a remove... I have heard very bad things about the *Sultannn line temper.  Stories abound about vicious behavior from both *Sultannn and his other famous (and rarely seen) son, *Asadd.  I have stories from people who worked for Chauncey about the drawing of straws as to who had to take *Asadd out of his stall...  I'm not sure how much of this is true, how much is campfire tale... But I have heard it from more than one person, at very different times.

Regarding Nabiel... I have his blood in my lines (and, therefore, *Sakr and *Sultannn).  I do like to see it.  But the horses that I have handled with this blood have always been very "reactive".  Getting in any sort of argument with them, or trying to move too quickly into something new, can have Very Bad Results, both immediately and in the future.  There is very little foregiveness.

It is also something that they seem to "grow out of", although I'm personally not sure exactly when.  A Nabiel daughter I met as a young horse was very aggressive in pasture situations with humans, and I was warned about her behavior by the owner who was concerned about visitors getting hurt.  I ran across the same mare many years later... Geez... Might actually be you, (SimplyArabians?)... Bluewater Indigo.  She was a much reformed girl by the time she reached her late teens and 20's, or so I was told.

Perhaps it was simply that the athleticism was there, but the attendant personality and "fire" wasn't what trainers and owners really wanted to deal with on a day to day basis.  I mean... If you say "Straight Egyptian" to performance trainers, they tend to tuck their tails and find someone else to direct you to.  It isn't that the horse isn't athletic (I've never been told any of my horses aren't athletic), but there is a strong bias to the "trainability" of the SEs.  I've found it easier to have a meeting with the trainer where they can see the horse before I ever drop a pedigree.

Until I owned horses with *Ibn Hafiza up close in their lines, I was actually thinking it had to do with Sameh.  I have (or have owned) 3 mares with Nabiel blood in them, one with *Asadd, and three plus a colt with Sameh through *Ibn Hafiza (and one other Egyptian-related mare with Sameh through *Serenity Bint Nadia).  Without a doubt, the Nabiel and *Asadd mares have to be handled with kid gloves, or things can quickly go "KABOOM!!"  The *Ibn Hafiza horses are much more laid back about things, although they have very strong opinions, and are much easier to work with.

In my opinion only.

I'm also going to be watching this thread to see what others have experienced!

Kimberley

Yes, I did own Bluewater Indigo..loved that horse! She was a firecracker though, really di dnto like men and actually continued to attack them until the day she left. I never had a problem with her personally. I do have another Nabiel daughter who is also a pistol, but not at all mean or flighty. Just fun to watch. My two Nabiel grand daughters are awesome.. kids can do anything with them. All of the horses have incredible legs and movement, something I am noticing to be consistent with those lines.

[Avalondales]

We have two Sugaa daughters and as far as attitude and willingness they are excellent.. They are both very solid mares nice chests, excellent cannons, and pretty significant hind ends on both.  The only major critique wold be the length of the back and this is a trait of the dam's line... Sugaa being a full brother to Nabiel, perhaps Magidaa was a good match for Sakr?  Sara has given us a nice colt and he is a nice youngster to work with..

I think much of what is stated about various lines and temperament has to do with treatment...I don't necessarily mean ill treatment, just treatment that is contrary to the nature of a horse.. In the show world many are stalled a significant part of the day and this causes much frustration to the horse... As far as Sultann, I have heard that he was possessive of the mares and did not tolerate other stallions well..

[VanAlma]

Avalondales, on May 5 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

We have two Sugaa daughters and as far as attitude and willingness they are excellent.. They are both very solid mares nice chests, excellent cannons, and pretty significant hind ends on both.  The only major critique wold be the length of the back and this is a trait of the dam's line... Sugaa being a full brother to Nabiel, perhaps Magidaa was a good match for Sakr?  Sara has given us a nice colt and he is a nice youngster to work with..

I think much of what is stated about various lines and temperament has to do with treatment...I don't necessarily mean ill treatment, just treatment that is contrary to the nature of a horse.. In the show world many are stalled a significant part of the day and this causes much frustration to the horse... As far as Sultann, I have heard that he was possessive of the mares and did not tolerate other stallions well..

Yup - ditto on the treatment thing. Some lines simply don't tolerate being threated poorly and I don't find that a fault...

OK, you gonna breed that Sugaa dtr to Caesare? I'm liking his breeding A LOT - might produce an old world egyptian likes the ones that were imported years ago .... JMO

[Lysette]

Very interesting to hear the comments on temperament.  I consider my mare, a  Nabiel granddaughter through her father, to be a reactive mare who requires negotiations rather than orders!  But from accounts and my own brief meeting with her parents, that attitude came more from her mother.  The Nabiel son Akid Kasim seemed like a Golden Retriever--happy to meet new people and eager for attention.  His son, FDA Badmoonrising, seemed similar in attitude and has been shown with success under saddle.

Quite obviously, I'm a fan of the Sakr/Sultann lines!