393 replies to this topic

[Angella]

I was just speaking to a breeder last night and he was mentioning that Bint el Bataa (sp?) had an issue in her offspring where a lot of them were coming up with a defect in the fetlock.  Essentially, a horse had finally had to be put down and autopsied to find out what was going on and it turned out that if these horses were low on vitamin...and he couldn't remember which...a, or d, or e... that this defect showed up, but as long as they were supplemented with this issue it did not.

Anybody remember or know anything about this?

[NAF]

Which one?  Jan

[Seglavi]

Angella,
I have loved and bred from the *Bint El Bataa horses since the mid 80's. IMO, they carry some sort of unidentified genetic problem that results in ataxia in the rear quarters, especially in the females of the line and it passes on. I have heard that Harold Jeans had some work done through Oregon State University and found that supplementing Vit. E and Selenium cleared up the symptoms but I have been unable to get those results.  The stallions with the female line, don't seem to produce the condition when bred to non-El Bataa tail females but I have only seen one tail female of this line (granted I haven't seen them all but a lot) that did not exhibit the problem to some degree and that was Leila RSI whom we leased. It took us so many years to comprehend what we were seeing because unless you know what to look for in the young babies you would not know.  By the time they are about 3 they would show the rear end ataxia and for us, it has not gotten any worse as they age.  Some other people have found that the mares might go down when heavy in foal and be unable to get up.  We have not experienced this but always always supplement these horses.
I must add that we owned a grandson (through his mother) of *Bint El Bataa for most of his life, a magnificent fine moving stallion but he produced the condition when bred to an *Ansata Bint Nazeer (full sister to BEB) tail female SE.  I believe it is in most of the daughters of El Bataa but that is just my opinion.

[Ray]

There may have been issues with BEB offspring, fetlock or elsewhere, related to vitamin deficiency.

However, it is known that BEB passed on a proclivity to impaired movement.  Some discussion of this "condition" surfaces in the genetic defect groups.  The condition is known as the BEB Hop, for lack of a better description, I assume.  This condition, while not crippling, could possibly be some form of ataxia.  There is no particular consistency with regard to the inheritance - some have it, some don't.

The condition has been observed in offspring of the El Bataa line - from Bint El Bataa (1955 by Nazeer), from Binte El Bataa ( 1958 by Nazeer) and Ansata Bint Nazeer (1960 x Nazeer).  

The outward expression of the condition is movement which is best described as a "hop".  The horse moves like a bunny rabbit in gaits above the walk, seeming to lack coordination to use the hind legs independently - they use both together.  It's hard to describe in words.  

The above is my current understanding of this - there could be other information far more meaningful than mine.

[NAF]

Very interesting.  I don't have any Bint El Bataa or Binte El Bataa in my bloodlines.  Does anyone know exactly where this defect is coming from?  Surely it must be from the female line.   Jan

[Heidi]

Alex Tubel owned two full sister out  of *BINTE EL BATAA. My friend tried to ride them and from his accounting their rear ends collapsed after they had weight on them.

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[Angella]

That's interesting.  He describes having two mares of this line... bought before he knew about it.  He claims one has it, and the other doesn't.  The one that does, seems to lose the condition when he supplements.  But the movement he describes can't be the same as the one described here.... he claims she's the prettiest horse out there and the best mover... except for a rolling motion in the rear fetlock.

[Ray]

There are a few other forum members who have seen it (the BEB Hop).  Maybe they'll add their observations later - don't seem 'em signed on right now...

[phanilah]

In the genetic diseases section on this forum there are some threads on EDM and Neuroaxonal Dystrophy - one of these "may" be what the "BeB Hop" is.  Those threads also have some information on the condition in relation to vitamin supplementation.

Beth

[chiron]

If you're brave, you can go over to the darkside...    There is a very long, very good thread on Bint el Bataa & the sisters.  I think it is the longest discussion ever "overthere" that didn't disintegrate into     Lots & lots of good info.
The problem is very real.  Take this from someone (Me) who owned a son of *Bint el Bataa....Elbateer RSI by *Ansata el Salim.  
In some of the affected the Hop is very slight.  But once you have seen it...& you might need someone to call your attention to it...you'll be surprised at the number of "good moving" horses from this family that Hop..especially as they rollback where it is usually most easily seen.

[phanilah]

The SCID-SE group that Lisa Tucker (Flying Hooves) set up on Yahoo Groups also has a VERY GOOD discussion, with commentary from quite a few people who have either seen and/or owned horses with the condition.  [the list isn't limited to just SCID discussion] You would need to join the list to get access to the posts - but IMO it is well worth the read...plus the list has some other very good information on it too.

Beth

[chiron]

What Beth said.  

[Seglavi]

phanilah, on May 27 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

In the genetic diseases section on this forum there are some threads on EDM and Neuroaxonal Dystrophy - one of these "may" be what the "BeB Hop" is.  Those threads also have some information on the condition in relation to vitamin supplementation.

Beth

Hi Beth,
I have read and read about these conditions, EDM and Neuroaxonal Dystrophy and neither one as described has the movement that the *BEB horses have. While the *BEB ataxia may be a variant on ND I don't think it is  related to EDM.  We rode our stallion quite a bit, he was the fastest horse I have ever been on, high speed, high action trot and good on trails. You would probably have had to ride him, he had a rolling motion from the hips back or try pole bending to even know he had a problem.
The tail female mares on the other hand seem more effected and any sideways movement is difficult, like weaving through a narrow gate for example.  Cavaletti work is very hard for some of them, can't seem to pick their feet up in any rhythm.  I can believe some of the mares might be too weak in the rear to carry a rider but one of the early fillies we bred (*BEBtail female sire on *ABN tail female dam)  has been ridden a good bit and while she can trot a hole in the wind, she cannot canter with a rider. She can canter without a rider however.
This is a very troubling condition, very, very pretty horses with lots of good muscling and drive and so sweet.  Believe me when I tell you it broke our hearts to finally get our heads around it.
The critical point to make is in order to observe the ataxia you MUST see a TAIL FEMALE descendant.  *Simeon Shai has this line through Sankt George but in no way exhibits it or passes it on.

[Demelza]

Pam,
Would it be possible for the condition to go undetected if the horse was never ridden?

[LMG]

Demelza:   I had an Alcibiades daughter, tail female to *Bint el Bataa, and she developed the inability to back up without me having to go into a stall or paddock, and move her forehand around.  I gave her only son away, and he died as an older horse without the hop, but I thought it was something that had happened to her rather than a genetic condition.    She died without any other offspring.   All my other Pritzlaff horses did not have it in the female line, so did not exhibit the problem.

Lorriee

[LMG]

I meant to say, that she also was never ridden.

Lorriee

[Ray]

Demelza, on May 27 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

Pam,
Would it be possible for the condition to go undetected if the horse was never ridden?

I would like to hear from Pam also.  However, my understanding (waiting for correction) is that the condition does not require the weight of a rider to manifest, although it becomes blatantly more visible.  It does require someone knowing how a horse should move, as opposed to how it does move.  Also, males of the El Bataa line do not exhibit, nor do they pass the trait along.  It is only the tail-female females of that line.  Shiko Ibn Sheikh being an example of a male of that tail-female line that did not exhibit or pass on the trait.  This is my understanding, at present.

[phanilah]

Seglavi, on May 27 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Hi Beth,
I have read and read about these conditions, EDM and Neuroaxonal Dystrophy and neither one as described has the movement that the *BEB horses have. While the *BEB ataxia may be a variant on ND I don't think it is  related to EDM.  We rode our stallion quite a bit, he was the fastest horse I have ever been on, high speed, high action trot and good on trails. You would probably have had to ride him, he had a rolling motion from the hips back or try pole bending to even know he had a problem.
The tail female mares on the other hand seem more effected and any sideways movement is difficult, like weaving through a narrow gate for example.  Cavaletti work is very hard for some of them, can't seem to pick their feet up in any rhythm.  I can believe some of the mares might be too weak in the rear to carry a rider but one of the early fillies we bred (*BEBtail female sire on *ABN tail female dam)  has been ridden a good bit and while she can trot a hole in the wind, she cannot canter with a rider. She can canter without a rider however.
This is a very troubling condition, very, very pretty horses with lots of good muscling and drive and so sweet.  Believe me when I tell you it broke our hearts to finally get our heads around it.
The critical point to make is in order to observe the ataxia you MUST see a TAIL FEMALE descendant.  *Simeon Shai has this line through Sankt George but in no way exhibits it or passes it on.

It would be interesting to compile a more formal listing of all of the horses reported to have or suspect of having the "BeB Hop" and compare photos, pedigrees and case histories (if video available, that would be great).  

Did your vet have any thoughts or did you any vitamin supplementation?  It is a bit like a puzzle, a lot of common insight from a variety of people re: a variety of horses - but none of the pieces seem to fully fit together with every case.

Very interesting!

Beth

[LMG]

I'm not sure I understand how vitamins can change or stop this condition.   In fact, I don't know if there has been any description, necropsy, of findings which may give a rationale as to what the problem may be.

If it is bone and deterioration of bone or discs between the bone, I'm not sure that vitamins would change, and I say that with all due respect, since I worked with injured workers for over 20 years, many who had back injuries.   There is a condition which people are born with, and which they may go all through life with and never know they have it, unless they suffer some trauma - which can be even minimal.  It is due to the a lumber vertebrae not being "in -line" and actually being at somewhat a canted position and the trauma causes it to slip out of place,  Often called as having a dog's leg appearance on film.

If it is nerve and due to failure for myelin sheath formation (nerve covering), I am not aware of the literature as the mechanism for vitamin E or any vitamin which would cause remyelinzation.  


Vitamin B deficiency in human beings can caused damage to the myelin sheath, and be found in people who are true vegans and develop pernicious anemia and folic acid deficiencies.  But, I highly doubt this is the problem in horses, unless they have a metabolic disorder which prevents them from incorporating a needed vitamin or mineral in their diet.

I would sincerely appreciate receiving any references to scientific literature regarding this condition.   Those of us who have had horses with this problem seemed to recognize it only when we have reference to other breeders who know about the condition and rarely from a veterinarian since, few have seen this, if at all.

Lorriee

[Baraka]

Seglavi, on May 27 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Hi Beth,
I have read and read about these conditions, EDM and Neuroaxonal Dystrophy and neither one as described has the movement that the *BEB horses have. While the *BEB ataxia may be a variant on ND I don't think it is  related to EDM.  We rode our stallion quite a bit, he was the fastest horse I have ever been on, high speed, high action trot and good on trails. You would probably have had to ride him, he had a rolling motion from the hips back or try pole bending to even know he had a problem.
The tail female mares on the other hand seem more effected and any sideways movement is difficult, like weaving through a narrow gate for example.  Cavaletti work is very hard for some of them, can't seem to pick their feet up in any rhythm.  I can believe some of the mares might be too weak in the rear to carry a rider but one of the early fillies we bred (*BEBtail female sire on *ABN tail female dam)  has been ridden a good bit and while she can trot a hole in the wind, she cannot canter with a rider. She can canter without a rider however.
This is a very troubling condition, very, very pretty horses with lots of good muscling and drive and so sweet.  Believe me when I tell you it broke our hearts to finally get our heads around it.
The critical point to make is in order to observe the ataxia you MUST see a TAIL FEMALE descendant.  *Simeon Shai has this line through Sankt George but in no way exhibits it or passes it on.

A trained eye can see this in horses of virtually any generation after BeB, primarily on the mare side.... not sure why.  It's not always easy to detect until they change directions.  If one is run along a fence, then expected to pivot to reverse direction, they don't know what to do with their back legs.  They dance around with them until they get themselves turned around.  They can't pivot at all.  

I know of a farm who bred a number of this line before realizing the problem.  All of them were given away, with an agreement that they were not to be bred to an Arabian.  I know of no other line who has this, but given the prepotency of this problem, I keep it out of my program.  IMO, it would be very irresponsible to breed this back on itself.  One cross is enough to potentially cause the offsprings to pass on a problem.