393 replies to this topic

[chiron]

Ray, on May 27 2009, 12:18 PM, said:

I would like to hear from Pam also.  However, my understanding (waiting for correction) is that the condition does not require the weight of a rider to manifest, although it becomes blatantly more visible.  It does require someone knowing how a horse should move, as opposed to how it does move.  Also, males of the El Bataa line do not exhibit, nor do they pass the trait along.  It is only the tail-female females of that line.  Shiko Ibn Sheikh being an example of a male of that tail-female line that did not exhibit or pass on the trait.  This is my understanding, at present.

Ray,  It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that the BeB males don't have or pass on the "Hop".  I do agree that Shiko Ibn Sheikh apparently DID NOT have the problem, nor did he seem to pass it on.
My "Babi" had it & did pass it on, but only a couple of times.  The BeB son Night Visitor was very compromised & lost young to the condition.
Ray, & everybody else who is intersted take a look at Lisa's (Flying Hooves) Yahoo Group for a partial listing of affected BeB's.  Kindly compiled by SZEDLISA.   I have the list but to 'puter stoopid to post it here.  I'll email it to anyone who is interest.
Going to take a big drink of something strong & take myself over to theedarkside & see if the old BeB thread survived intact.

[Ray]

chiron, on May 28 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

Ray,  It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that the BeB males don't have or pass on the "Hop".  I do agree that Shiko Ibn Sheikh apparently DID NOT have the problem, nor did he seem to pass it on.
My "Babi" had it & did pass it on, but only a couple of times.  The BeB son Night Visitor was very compromised & lost young to the condition.
Ray, & everybody else who is intersted take a look at Lisa's (Flying Hooves) Yahoo Group for a partial listing of affected BeB's.  Kindly compiled by SZEDLISA.   I have the list but to 'puter stoopid to post it here.  I'll email it to anyone who is interest.
Going to take a big drink of something strong & take myself over to theedarkside & see if the old BeB thread survived intact.

Excellent!  My understanding is now updated...thanks!  

[phanilah]

As already mentioned, some of the references re: EDM and ND (including potential links to vitamin E deficiency) have already been posted in the genetic diseases section on this forum.  Whether or not the BeB Hop is either of these conditions (or perhaps different, but related) has yet to be determined.

Beth

[Angella]

You know... I'm looking at the complications from Vitamin E deficiency and am thinking there may be some truth to the concept that you can prevent symptoms in a foal by supplementing the foal... and mother too... with copious amounts of vitamin E.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9012278

Perhaps there is a metabolic thing that hinders the absorption of vitamin E in the El Bataa line.

[Bay Mare Farm]

Does the full sister Binte El Bataa and her progeny carry the condition also??

Billy

[chiron]

Whew..I made it back from "theedarkside"    Had to log in to Bump the thread up.
The old BeB thread seems to have survived, except for Katarin who seemly has delete her posts.  
But that's OK.  The names & observations are otherwise all there.  At least for now.  There is a little rambling but not much.  Just lots & lots of observations by people who have had first hand experience with the BeBop     & other neuro problems in the line.  Down toward the end Mistress Kelly adds her         But...S'OK.

[Ray]

Bay Mare Farm, on May 28 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

Does the full sister Binte El Bataa and her progeny carry the condition also??

Billy

Yes.

[chiron]

Bay Mare Farm, on May 28 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

Does the full sister Binte El Bataa and her progeny carry the condition also??

Billy

Billy, that answer is,  YES & NO.      Seems that some do but not at the same frequency & consistancy of BeB (black).  Actually the sister Ansata Bint Nazeer may have actually given MORE neuro problems than BeB so her blood is not as prevalent.  Take the time to read you way thru some 15 pages...over theeere.   Maybe some answers or just more questions.  In the words of Jimmy Buffet  "Answers are the easy part...It's questions  raise the doubt"

OMG..WHEN did we get that ultra cool emoticon diving into the liquor glass????    that's exactly what I needed for my visit over theere.  

[Ray]

After about three hops into the glass, they outta have it miss and knock the glass over...

[Baraka]

I do know of Binte producing this, and feel that her contribution is also prevalent.  Most certainly ABN did and some critically so.  Ansata did the responsible thing when the problem became evident.

[chiron]

Ray, on May 28 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

After about three hops into the glass, they outta have it miss and knock the glass over...

     S'right    

[Demelza]

Lisa's (SZED) thoughts were based on an assumption the condition is autosomal recessive, which means there has to be other bloodlines involved to have affected horses, since not all affected were the result of linebreeding or inbreeding to the family. What are your thoughts on this?

[chiron]

With all due respect to Lisa (SZED) who is a WORLD CLASS researcher & much more knowlegable on genetics than I, I believe she may be in error on this.  ie: it does NOT take two to tango.    I base this on the possibly very wrong assumption that if the problem was in other lines we would see a lot more of the BeBop across all lines.  Now there is the possibility that BeB meeting certain other lines causes the problem to express in a more profound form..  Dunno.
I do know I have a mare here with NO BeB, et al, but does have MeN, that cannot unite at the canter.  Many of her sires kids were the same.  BUT.....my mare seems to have EPSSM  (Eqine Polysacharide Storage Myopathy)  In fact a filly (different owner) her same age,  DIED from what in hind site, was most likely advanced EPSSM.  My filly was dying when we came across an article discribing the condition.  Within a short week of a major diet change she was on her way to health & has never looked back.  It's just she still can't canter properly.  But NO BeBop.

A short PSA:   Cornel is still actively soliciting hair samples for the LFS/CCDL study.  If you haven't sent your samples yet...It is not to late to get in on this very important research.  AND best part it is FREE.  Well, a couple of dollars (less than $4 for me) for Postage.

[Seglavi]

We've had two of the other female lines from the original Pritzlaff importation, *Bint Moniet El Nefous and *Bint Nefisa, neither of the group of descendants shows the problem.  Wish I had more time to discuss this as well as read about the list of affected horses but just too much to do before the EE. I look forward to catching up with this thread after the show.

[Seglavi]

chiron, on May 28 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

With all due respect to Lisa (SZED) who is a WORLD CLASS researcher & much more knowlegable on genetics than I, I believe she may be in error on this.  ie: it does NOT take two to tango.    I base this on the possibly very wrong assumption that if the problem was in other lines we would see a lot more of the BeBop across all lines.  Now there is the possibility that BeB meeting certain other lines causes the problem to express in a more profound form..  Dunno.
I do know I have a mare here with NO BeB, et al, but does have MeN, that cannot unite at the canter.  Many of her sires kids were the same.  BUT.....my mare seems to have EPSSM  (Eqine Polysacharide Storage Myopathy)  In fact a filly (different owner) her same age,  DIED from what in hind site, was most likely advanced EPSSM.  My filly was dying when we came across an article discribing the condition.  Within a short week of a major diet change she was on her way to health & has never looked back.  It's just she still can't canter properly.  But NO BeBop.

A short PSA:   Cornel is still actively soliciting hair samples for the LFS/CCDL study.  If you haven't sent your samples yet...It is not to late to get in on this very important research.  AND best part it is FREE.  Well, a couple of dollars (less than $4 for me) for Postage.

Or bring them to the EE, the lead researcher is going to be there I understand.

[chiron]

Yes, the Dr. from Cornel is going to be at the EE.  Hoping to collect as many samples as possible.   Please, Please,  everybody step up & help out on this very important reaserch.  
PS doesn't even have to be sE to participate.  In fact Crabbet horses &/0r CMK horses are very much needed too

[phanilah]

Lisa (Szedlisa) put forward a recessive THEORY to show how the trait could be passed along IF it was a recessive.  The recessive theory came about because BeB didn't show the problem, although some of her offspring do, so that suggests that the trait is not dominant.  But, it was only a theory being offered for discussion.

It is possible that the trait itself isn't genetic, but rather there is a genetic predisposition for it, and other factors are needed for the trait to be expressed.  Or, there could be several different things going on and they are all being lumped into a single category, or.....and the list goes on. ;)

And YES, Dr. Brooks will be at the event with Cassy to collect VOLUNTARY samples for the LFS project...so keep a look out for them.  They will also have a booth set up for the project that will have some general information on LFS and other genetic diseases affecting the Arabian breed, along with information on the Arabian Horse Foundation.

Beth

Edited for a typo.

[chiron]

Beth, theory is all any of us have right now.  Maybe someday....
I will question your statement that BeB herself did not have a problem.  Maybe not as marked as some of the decendants, but.....It is documented that *Bint el Bataa, & only BeB, while on board ship coming to the US.   TWICE fell in her crate & had to be pulled out & helped back to her feet.  That suggests to me that just maybe she wasn't as    steady on her feet as her traveling companions.  Again, Dunno.   ;)

I am fairly sure that this is a metabolic problem, expression can be triggered (or supressed) by diet.  A for example : Diabetes in humans.  A close diabetic ancestor (even back to great-grands) increases YOUR risk to diabetes.  The "risk" factor is there but it takes a "trigger" to manifest.  Does that make sense.???


The crat doesn't really belong here but it's just too darn cute I just HAD to use it    

[phanilah]

In talking with someone who worked for Richard, I was told that neither BeB nor Rashad Ibn Nazeer physically showed the problem, but the cross between the two of them did yield some problems.  I'm not sure falling down in a shipping crate on board a ship (not unheard of) indicates she had the problem (I know people who can't manage to stay upright on board a ship either). ;)

But, until a lot of documentation is put together to try to narrow the common points down, you're rigth - it is all just theory.

Beth

[Seglavi]

phanilah, on May 28 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

In talking with someone who worked for Richard, I was told that neither BeB nor Rashad Ibn Nazzer physically showed the problem, but the cross between the two of them did yield some problems.  I'm not sure falling down in a shipping crate on board a ship (not unheard of) indicates she had the problem (I know people who can't manage to stay upright on board a ship either). ;)

But, until a lot of documentation is put together to try to narrow the common points down, you're rigth - it is all just theory.

Beth

Cookie baking for the AK booth at the EE is done for the day, back to this very interesting discussion for a moment.
Just can't imagine that such a combination as *Rashad and *BEB would uniquely  produce the problem, especially when she was bred to  other unrelated  stallions (Faarad, Bel Gordas, Ansata El Salim as well as Tibor the General and Alcibiades-the last two do have *Rashad, the other 3 do not) and still produced it. Our stallion was by Alcibiades and out of Faaraa (Faarad X *BEB) and he was slightly affected and produced it when bred to an *Ansata Bint Nazeer female line mare and one from *Binte El Bataa. And  Rashad had many other foals that didn't show it or produce it. And her sisters were never bred to *Rashid and they produced it.
*BEB's fall in the shipping crate would be in keeping if she suffered from  the condition but since I never saw her and since many, many people never comprehend the ataxia even seeing it for years, I must hold firm to my belief that *BEB and her sisters are the only source. Look at the breeders who have continued to produce this line, many are foundation farms and ranches in the EE group, I would bet very few of them ever understood what they were seeing, especially in the babies because it is barely discernable.
I would be more than happy to entertain other genetically inherited theories regarding this condition. Not trying to be hard headed here but more than 20+ years of experience with it has solidified my opinion. And we did supplement with Vit. E/Selenium toward the end of breeding this line, even giving shots to the babies and the mothers but in the end it didn't stop the ataxia.