393 replies to this topic

[bevolin]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and I joined specifically because of this topic.
I do not breed straight egyptians so I hope this is not a problem.
I used a SE to improve the heads and refine the crabbet type horses I have.
I have a small amount of understanding as to how certain genetic problems are passed on but am finding it hard to understand from what is written here as to whether any definite conclusion has been reached with regards to how Beb Hop is passed on in arabian horses.
I am keen to learn more and if possible find out exactly how this genetic problem is passed on and whether it is a true recessive or something else and I am willing to help in any research if my mares are of value with regards to DNA.
I am fairly new to Arabian breeding myself (roughly 10 years) although I had some years breeding TBs and some involvement with Waveney horses.
I have bred pedigree cats for 30 years, and they are much easier to trace genetic problems because more than one kitten is born in a litter and more than one litter a year is possible.
Devon Rex are afflicted with a number of hereditary diseases haemophilia which passes exactly like in humans, female carriers which have affected sons, and carrier daughters.
And muscle myopathy which is a true recessive genetic problem, you must have 2 carriers mated together or an affected animal with a carrier to get affected animals.
I have 3 Kyang Shamus mares, none of them are out of Egyptian bloodline bred mares, none of them are exhibiting any signs of being affected by Beb Hop, of 2 pure breds, 1 is 6yo, 1 is 4yo and the other is 75% arab/25% welsh arabian pony. All can walk, trot, canter, and back without difficulty and none have the hop which Shamus definitely did, I called it his bunny hop gait. I was unaware that it was caused by a genetic problem as when I purchased him he was far to thin and ill to do more than a lazy walk and I did not see it until I had fattened him up and I was told at that time, that he had injured himself by falling of a mare whilst serving her.
I have only recently found your site after someone who, was interested in purchasing my 6yo as a riding horse, but with the possibility of breeding a foal later, has changed her mind and directed me to it as she was concerned about BeB hop and breeding an affected foal. Hence my interest in finding out more.
I also have not spent enough time talking to breeders to find out such things as what is meant by tail line etc. (I assume it is referring to the dams line). Can anyone enlighten me in simple English.
Thanks Beverley

[VanAlma]

bevolin, on 16 January 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

...I have a small amount of understanding as to how certain genetic problems are passed on but am finding it hard to understand from what is written here as to whether any definite conclusion has been reached with regards to how Beb Hop is passed on in arabian horses.
...I have 3 Kyang Shamus mares, none of them are out of Egyptian bloodline bred mares, none of them are exhibiting any signs of being affected by Beb Hop, of 2 pure breds, 1 is 6yo, 1 is 4yo and the other is 75% arab/25% welsh arabian pony. All can walk, trot, canter, and back without difficulty and none have the hop which Shamus definitely did, I called it his bunny hop gait. I was unaware that it was caused by a genetic problem as when I purchased him he was far to thin and ill to do more than a lazy walk and I did not see it until I had fattened him up and I was told at that time, that he had injured himself by falling of a mare whilst serving her.
...Thanks Beverley

First of all,   Second, and I have a dog in this fight as I have a mare with El Bataa lines, is that there is absolutely nothing definitive and only some will admit to having it in their herd. At this point, my mares is leased, so I don't know if she has it or not. I saw nothing odd yet knew nothing about his disorder before she left, so that has yet to be determined.
Some say it's a tail-female problem, but others owned stallion lines that passed it on, so it's not connected to gender. From the posted research regarding these lines coming out of Egypt, the only horses of this line to be bred on to present day are horses that were exported to the US. It doesn't appear the riders in Egypt had much use of the El Bataa lines, but I am going on others' posted research, so that is my own, personal conclusion, and it could be wrong. Read the thread as this is from where I have got my conclusion.
Your information is helpful to all of us who are concerned with understanding the problem associated with theses lines.
I wish there were a definitive answer, but there simply has not been enough research done yet as with SCID, CA and LFS. Hopefully, someday, we'll be able to pin something down.
As an aside, do you have any video of that "bunny hop"? Many state that people won't know it until they see it, but no one has yet posted a video, so we "newbies" are still in the dark in regards to what we might see. It helps with research and general understanding.
I'm hoping some of the more experienced breeders and/or long-term owners will come on and elaborate for you.

[bevolin]

Hi Van Alma,
Thank you for your reply. I wish I could show you a video of this action but I was a pretty new breeder when I had Shamus and believed the rubbish that I was told by long term breeders at that time about the cause for his strange hind end action.
It really is a hop type movement with the back legs doing strange and different actions with every stride and the rump coming up as high as if the horse was doing a small buck/pigroot but there is obviously no intention of bucking and no control of the movement.
With Shamus it was visible at the canter, which in fact, was never a canter as he was incapable of the 3 beat movement of a canter, if you have ever watched ballet where the male dancer lifts the ballerina and she twiddles her legs, this is what the legs looked like.
I never thought to borrow a video camera and video this, I do however have photos of this lad. It is hard to look at a picture and see how incredibly narrow he was for his height 14.1hh, I just thought this was the Egyptian type, but to give you what hopefully will be a good idea, he was too narrow for a fit 1 County dressage saddle whereas his 14.1hh 6yo crabbet style daughter is a fit 4, his 14.3hh 4yo daughter who has the more egyptian style shape and looks most like him is still a fit 3. The fat little 13.2hh pony is a a fit 4.
I went to look at Shamus when he was advertised locally and purchased him immediately because of the condition he was in and because he was going to be dogged if not sold. In hindsight, maybe I should of let this occur. I would never of sold him on if I had known that this was a genetic problem not injury.
When I purchased him I had only ever intended to breed him to a few mares to hopefully get fillies with improved head type that I could breed back to my 100% A Kehailan Dajani stallions. I still did not suspect anything because my mares were fine as foals and still seem to be.
They are brilliant riding horses with temperaments that allow me to put beginners on their backs when they have previously only ever been ridden by myself an educated rider. Also they can be left for months without work, brought in and ridden, no fuss or vice.
When my foals were born, a SE breeder who knew I was going to purchase and use Shamus, decided she would tell me about the problem and that as it was dominent all my mares would be affected as every foal Shamus had thrown in the past with his previous owner had been affected. I was worried sick but I seem to be lucky in that my mares are unaffected which seems to disprove the dominent theory and maybe the other mares used also had suspect lines and were carriers, or maybe something else was in play, who knows.
At the risk of offending someone I will still say that, I am a horsewoman that breaks in all my horses, stallions and especially my mares as most foals seem to be more like their dams and I do not believe in breeding from something with undesirable temperament that cannot be ridden and is only for decoration or running around a show ring on the end of a lead.
Arabians are the quintessential saddle horse and as with all prey animals meant for fast flight, I personally cannot understand anyone who wants to keep breeding something that cannot move as the law of nature intended. It strikes me as extremely strange that anyone can claim to love something and then knowingly inflict something awful on the animals they claim to love.
Everywhere but especially in a country as small in population, and as far from elsewhere, as Australia, with the difficulty of affording to bring in new genetic blood, proliferation of this genetic problem is a disaster waiting to destroy our breed the Arabian, especially as so few are aware of it and it is still unknown what it really is and how it is passed on, so apart from the obvious horses, with no genetic test available, without complete co-operation of breeders, this will be difficult to breed out.
As I have previously said I have bred cats with a similar horrifying disease which because the breeders who love this breed choose to fight for their breed and try to save it, a worldwide registrar was set up by Pam Dowling in New Zealand, so breeders could ensure that they were not doubling up on the recessive gene that caused this problem, which manifested itself in many different ways from the very mild to severe symptoms. Initially there was recriminations and denials but eventually, people banded together to help, notifying willingly of a problem cat and the range of different but classic symptoms.
Consequently 50 years later we have many spastic free lines which still have stunning type. We do not believe we have eradicted this problem but controlled it admirably, life expectancy for an affected animal was short with little quality of life.
Is their anything similar for this problem?
I was wondering how all the details about which horses are affected listed on this topic was made? Where did the information come from?
Some say recessive, some passed through tail line, some dominent, so it does appear that no-one knows and the only test that most people have come up with is, whether the horse is able to be ridden.
I have recently had a lady who wanted a good riding horse decide not to purchase because she may want to breed a foal at some stage.
You will always get the odd person ignorant of how this sort of thing works refusing to purchase your horses or use your stallion, but common sense usually prevails, otherwise no Arabians would be being sold at all as if recessive, it might be found that there is very few totally clear lines.
I know a lot of SE breeders are reluctant to lose this status of 100%SE but just maybe that is the reason that this problem is continuing, if heavy inbreeding becomes the norm, than more and more of these types of disorders might occur however I am aware that even with outcrossing from these affected lines, you cannot be sure you have not mated to another carrier as people are not owning up to their affected horses, so it is difficult to follow the thread back through all pedigrees.
Sadly, the issue has been kept buried which would definitely be why the problem is still going on, all these years since it was first noticed.
Question for Ray, the address you have given for vets for hair samples, do you know that they are taking samples and working with this problem at this time and what do they need, how much hair and with the root bulb still on? I can provide 3 samples.
I will also try to get a friend to video me riding my mares and in the meantime I will video them moving unmounted.
Photos attached of Shamus.

[Ray]

bevolin, on 17 January 2011 - 07:24 AM, said:

Hi Van Alma,
Thank you for your reply. I wish I could show you a video of this action but I was a pretty new breeder when I had Shamus and believed the rubbish that I was told by long term breeders at that time about the cause for his strange hind end action.
It really is a hop type movement with the back legs doing strange and different actions with every stride and the rump coming up as high as if the horse was doing a small buck/pigroot but there is obviously no intention of bucking and no control of the movement.
With Shamus it was visible at the canter, which in fact, was never a canter as he was incapable of the 3 beat movement of a canter, if you have ever watched ballet where the male dancer lifts the ballerina and she twiddles her legs, this is what the legs looked like.
I never thought to borrow a video camera and video this, I do however have photos of this lad. It is hard to look at a picture and see how incredibly narrow he was for his height 14.1hh, I just thought this was the Egyptian type, but to give you what hopefully will be a good idea, he was too narrow for a fit 1 County dressage saddle whereas his 14.1hh 6yo crabbet style daughter is a fit 4, his 14.3hh 4yo daughter who has the more egyptian style shape and looks most like him is still a fit 3. The fat little 13.2hh pony is a a fit 4.
I went to look at Shamus when he was advertised locally and purchased him immediately because of the condition he was in and because he was going to be dogged if not sold. In hindsight, maybe I should of let this occur. I would never of sold him on if I had known that this was a genetic problem not injury.
When I purchased him I had only ever intended to breed him to a few mares to hopefully get fillies with improved head type that I could breed back to my 100% A Kehailan Dajani stallions. I still did not suspect anything because my mares were fine as foals and still seem to be.
They are brilliant riding horses with temperaments that allow me to put beginners on their backs when they have previously only ever been ridden by myself an educated rider. Also they can be left for months without work, brought in and ridden, no fuss or vice.
When my foals were born, a SE breeder who knew I was going to purchase and use Shamus, decided she would tell me about the problem and that as it was dominent all my mares would be affected as every foal Shamus had thrown in the past with his previous owner had been affected. I was worried sick but I seem to be lucky in that my mares are unaffected which seems to disprove the dominent theory and maybe the other mares used also had suspect lines and were carriers, or maybe something else was in play, who knows.
At the risk of offending someone I will still say that, I am a horsewoman that breaks in all my horses, stallions and especially my mares as most foals seem to be more like their dams and I do not believe in breeding from something with undesirable temperament that cannot be ridden and is only for decoration or running around a show ring on the end of a lead.
Arabians are the quintessential saddle horse and as with all prey animals meant for fast flight, I personally cannot understand anyone who wants to keep breeding something that cannot move as the law of nature intended. It strikes me as extremely strange that anyone can claim to love something and then knowingly inflict something awful on the animals they claim to love.
Everywhere but especially in a country as small in population, and as far from elsewhere, as Australia, with the difficulty of affording to bring in new genetic blood, proliferation of this genetic problem is a disaster waiting to destroy our breed the Arabian, especially as so few are aware of it and it is still unknown what it really is and how it is passed on, so apart from the obvious horses, with no genetic test available, without complete co-operation of breeders, this will be difficult to breed out.
As I have previously said I have bred cats with a similar horrifying disease which because the breeders who love this breed choose to fight for their breed and try to save it, a worldwide registrar was set up by Pam Dowling in New Zealand, so breeders could ensure that they were not doubling up on the recessive gene that caused this problem, which manifested itself in many different ways from the very mild to severe symptoms. Initially there was recriminations and denials but eventually, people banded together to help, notifying willingly of a problem cat and the range of different but classic symptoms.
Consequently 50 years later we have many spastic free lines which still have stunning type. We do not believe we have eradicted this problem but controlled it admirably, life expectancy for an affected animal was short with little quality of life.
Is their anything similar for this problem?
I was wondering how all the details about which horses are affected listed on this topic was made? Where did the information come from?
Some say recessive, some passed through tail line, some dominent, so it does appear that no-one knows and the only test that most people have come up with is, whether the horse is able to be ridden.
I have recently had a lady who wanted a good riding horse decide not to purchase because she may want to breed a foal at some stage.
You will always get the odd person ignorant of how this sort of thing works refusing to purchase your horses or use your stallion, but common sense usually prevails, otherwise no Arabians would be being sold at all as if recessive, it might be found that there is very few totally clear lines.
I know a lot of SE breeders are reluctant to lose this status of 100%SE but just maybe that is the reason that this problem is continuing, if heavy inbreeding becomes the norm, than more and more of these types of disorders might occur however I am aware that even with outcrossing from these affected lines, you cannot be sure you have not mated to another carrier as people are not owning up to their affected horses, so it is difficult to follow the thread back through all pedigrees.
Sadly, the issue has been kept buried which would definitely be why the problem is still going on, all these years since it was first noticed.
Question for Ray, the address you have given for vets for hair samples, do you know that they are taking samples and working with this problem at this time and what do they need, how much hair and with the root bulb still on? I can provide 3 samples.
I will also try to get a friend to video me riding my mares and in the meantime I will video them moving unmounted.
Photos attached of Shamus.
Shamus 2aug06 009.jpg Shamus 2aug06 005.jpg Shamus 2aug06 009.jpg

Hi Beverly,

I enjoyed reading this post.  Your thoughts are right in line with many of us on this forum.  

If I remember correctly, Lisa Goodwin-Campiglio compiled the list of horses, over time, from various forums and personal communications.  The BeB Hop is not likely to spread like wild-fire, as the line is actually rare in the tail-female.  This, along with lack of cooperation from some owners of the line have made samples for testing as scarce as hen's teeth.

Karen (chiron) and Lorriee (LMG) have many, many years of experience with horses - and I mean hands-on experience.  They have also had first-hand experience with the BeB Hop over some years and their advice on how to visually "test" for the condition is sound advice.  As they have said, in their experience, if the horse does not exhibit the condition, he/she will not pass it on (not recessive).  

I called UC Davis just a moment ago, but the facility is closed for the holiday (Martin Luther King day).  I will check again tomorrow on your question for Dr. Penedo.  However, the last I knew she was accepting any and all samples to begin building a data base.  50 or so hairs from mane or tail with the root-bulbs - taped to paper with the horse name, reg number, indicate it is for the "BeB Hop" test.  Put in a regular envelope.  Don't use plastic baggies, as they are not suitable for preserving the roots.

Again - very nice to hear from you on this and I hope you will participate in some of the other topics on the Discussion board.  

p.s. Heidi, I am not able to view the attachments Bev sent on her last post - says "permission denied"??

[Ray]

I sent an email to Dr. Penedo with regard to any study going on.  Will report back with any news.

[Demelza]

This came up in a conversation about Wobblers and how perhaps some "hoppy" horses may have been diagnosed (misdiagnosed?) as wobblers. I thought the "home diagnosis" was worth putting here. Has anyone with a suspected BeB hopper tried this test?

http://www.uky.edu/A...pubs/asc133.pdf

Horse owners and veterinarians can perform less
costly tests to determine whether a horse has CVM. The
first sign an owner may notice will be incoordination
of the rear legs. Horses can compensate with vision to
coordinate the fore limbs, but will stumble with their
hind legs because they cannot visually compensate.
Turning the horse in a small circle is a quick and easy
test to detect a horse with wobbler syndrome. If he is
suffering from the syndrome, he will swing his rear
legs out as he makes the turn. Also, horses afflicted
with the syndrome will have trouble backing up. Instead of letting their rear legs back up in a two beat diagonal fashion with their front legs, they back up with
their front legs until they get in an awkward position
and they will hop backwards with their rear legs.
Two other ways of detecting wobbler syndrome are
by performing the sway test and by checking the
weakness of the tail. Two people are necessary to administer the sway test. One person walks the horse
away while the other person grabs the tail and pulls
the horse to one side. A normal horse will allow you to
do that once before rapidly correcting itself. However,
a horse exhibiting wobbler syndrome cannot tell where
his limbs are, especially his hind limbs, thus, you can
easily pull him over to one side.

Another simple test used routinely is simply to pick
up the horse’s tail. If there is absolutely no resistance,
the horse is having some type of problem with normal
nerve function in his spinal cord. Thus, the weakness
in resistance of the tail is attributed to the pressure on
the spinal cord caused by the malformation of the cervical vertebrae.
Diagnosis of wobbler syndrome is not easy because
several other causes of incoordination exist in horses,
such as viruses, protozoa in the spinal cord, parasites,
tumors, or fracture

[tiawarra]

Hello, This is my first time here & I'm not trying to start a an argument. Can someone please explain to me how Kyang Miska was placed on this list? I owned her for most of her life until she went to live with a close friend of mine. None of her progeny have the HOP. Please explain to me how you can list a horse without contacting the owners?
Many thanks, Debbie Comini, Australia
I tried to add a pic of Miska & her beautifully strong movementbut was unable to. Can someone explain how to do this???

[tiawarra]

As no one has bothered to respond to my question, I am now asking that Kyang Miska be removed from this list. She has no progeny with "the hop". I would love to know who included her on this list & why??? It seems to me that any horse can be listed as something it isn't, with no consultation with the horses owner.
Still waiting for that response & requesting that Miska be removed. If no response to this post I will be make a demand that you:-
A. Show proof in black & white
B. Tell me how she was included in this list
C. How you can list a horse without consulting with it's owner
C. A written apology on this forum
D. Miska's name removed from the list & her name cleared

Attached is a pic of Miska at full trot...............tell me where is the hop????

Yours, Debbie Comini, Australia

Attached Files

•  Miska close up.jpg   12.1K   2 downloads

[Ray]

Dr. Penedo has not responded to my email.  Anita, we discussed this a while back, have you heard anything?

Debbie - if you look back in the posts, I think it was Lisa Goodwin-Campiglio who posted the list.  You might try sending her an email, as she has, apparently, not seen your question here.  You can find her contact info through her profile, which is szedlisa.

[laurence of arabians]

[Dr. Penedo.  However, the last I knew she was accepting any and all samples to begin building a data base.  50 or so hairs from mane or tail with the root-bulbs - taped to paper with the horse name, reg number, indicate it is for the "BeB Hop" test.  Put in a regular envelope.  Don't use plastic baggies, as they are not suitable for preserving the roots.]

I have imported and now own several horses with BeB in their pedigrees, males and females, some even Double BeB and have bred them together... So far, I am not witnessing any sign of ataxia nor rabbit hops...but I am willing to participate to any study since I have many representatives...
Both stallions have been ridden in endurance, one is even IRE* (twice 60 miles races) and also does dressage and jumping.... His half maternal sister who is double BeB has been gently broken and worked in the round pen at all gaits and shows no ataxia either...

Thanks to let me know if Dr Penedo would accept to receive hair samples from abroad...

Warm Regards,
Laurence

[Heidi]

The farm put down a mare last year with the hop, she was so extreme we couldn't do a thing to help her.

[calicoarab52]

Good evening all! As the saying goes, I do NOT have a dog in this fight, but I have had hands on and seen a good number of these horses, both affected and non-affected. Pam Studebaker also had horses of this line, and encountered the BebHop problem. From the observations from my own experiences, and as my friend Chiron owned a direct BeB son, El BateerRSI, I feel, as Chiron does, that it is a dominant trait, and not sex linked. El BateerSRI (Ansata El Salim x *Bint El Bataa), sired the Beb-HOP (severe) from a mare who not only had NO BeB breeding, she had no MEN, so there was NO Medallela in the pedigree at all. None. The affected horse had a full brother who did NOT have the problem. So it can be passed on from only one parent, it does not take two to tango. I know of other similar situations, but as the owners did not ever post it here, I would not do so. Now, if indeed it  IS a dominant, then if the individual is a double recessive (i.e. clear) it can safely be bred from & never, ever produce an affected offspring. It is truly sad that there is still so much denial going on, as has been seen with other genetic conditions, if enough people have the courage to come forward & provide samples, a genetic marker can be identified and a test found, and there is no reason to further deplete the gene pool. The BeB horses had marvelous temperaments, were beautiful, and those who were clear seemed to be excellent movers. So overall, very desirable horses, when they were/are correct. Multiple US National Champion Park Horse, Eqquus, carries the Shiko Ibn Sheik blood up close, and it obviously did not hurt his career in an extreme perfomance field. But the other side of the coin is truly tragic.

Sandy C

[BettyK]

Bill and Pat Trapp owned Ansata Saroya.  She was absolutely fine for many years but as an older mare became quite ataxic.  After conversations with Judi F. they learned that there was a problem with the Ansata Bint Nazeer line.  Not only did they have to put this mare down AND one of the finest colts they ever bred, they also notified everyone who had purchased a horse out of Saroya and either replaced it or returned their money.  It was a hideous experience.

[desertrat]

In his book, "The Egyptian Alternative-V.2", Philippe Paraskevas flatly states that there is no problem with the El Bataa's in Egypt. My comment is not meant to deny or deride any other information offered on this subject. i present it merely as a point of information from the book.