393 replies to this topic

[phanilah]

Seglavi, on May 28 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

Just can't imagine that such a combination as *Rashad and *BEB would uniquely  produce the problem, especially when she was bred to  other unrelated  stallions (Faarad, Bel Gordas, Ansata El Salim as well as Tibor the General and Alcibiades-the last two do have *Rashad, the other 3 do not) and still produced it.

I don't recall saying that cross uniquely produced the problem to the exclusion of other crosses, simply that they did see a problem with that cross.  Since I never worked for Richard, I'm not in a position to argue with someone who did. ;)

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*BEB's fall in the shipping crate would be in keeping if she suffered from  the condition but since I never saw her and since many, many people never comprehend the ataxia even seeing it for years, I must hold firm to my belief that *BEB and her sisters are the only source.

Then that suggests it was a more recent random mutation closely linked to their pedigree or they are, for whatever reason, producing foals with a strong predisposition for the problem.

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I would be more than happy to entertain other genetically inherited theories regarding this condition. Not trying to be hard headed here but more than 20+ years of experience with it has solidified my opinion. And we did supplement with Vit. E/Selenium toward the end of breeding this line, even giving shots to the babies and the mothers but in the end it didn't stop the ataxia.

Until the documentation can be put together to see the common points for all of the reported cases, there is no way of knowing if what everyone is seeing is actually the same disorder or if other issues also coming into play.  For example, CA is also suspect for some of the ancestral horses in some of these pedigrees - so that shouldn't be completely ruled for every case.  And, not all cases will necessarily appear or respond the same way.  I don't think anyone has said that vitamin E is a cure all for it, rather that there is a suspect link in some neurological conditions and in some cases of neurological problems, it has helped.   Until a determination can be made for what the BeB Hop actually is, there are limits for how much can be known.  Some people feel that it could be EDM or ND, others feel that it isn't.  In the end....it is all theory right now.

Beth

[chiron]

This is a mean thing to say & I usually don't ingage in that sort of  
But....Hugh claims to be able to "fix" the problem with supliments....The 3X BeB of his that I saw turned out (the only one of his that I did get to see move)  HOPPED.  admittedly not in a glaring manner but I didn't need to see a pedigree to know I was looking at the BeBop    Sorry Hugh but true, none the less.  

[Seglavi]

I agree with so much of what you are writing Beth. No one can know what the real explanation for the BEB hop truly is until research figures it out.  I do know from using other descendants of the sisters of *BEB that they have it too. It crushes me to say it but it is there and the information must be shared.
Will you be at the EE?  Would love to talk about this face to face.

[phanilah]

Seglavi, on May 28 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

I agree with so much of what you are writing Beth. No one can know what the real explanation for the BEB hop truly is until research figures it out.  I do know from using other descendants of the sisters of *BEB that they have it too. It crushes me to say it but it is there and the information must be shared.
Will you be at the EE?  Would love to talk about this face to face.

Unfortunately, no - but I'm hoping to make to OR in August.

Maybe it is time to formally start collecting case information from anyone who is willing to share:

1) case history
2) pedigree
3) photos
4) video
5) other

Beth

[Seglavi]

Shall I bring that stuff to Oregon?  I know several other people who have these horses or had them as well.  I can contact them over the summer and try to get something going.

[Victoria Jensen]

LMG, on May 28 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

I'm not sure I understand how vitamins can change or stop this condition.   In fact, I don't know if there has been any description, necropsy, of findings which may give a rationale as to what the problem may be.

If it is bone and deterioration of bone or discs between the bone, I'm not sure that vitamins would change, and I say that with all due respect, since I worked with injured workers for over 20 years, many who had back injuries.   There is a condition which people are born with, and which they may go all through life with and never know they have it, unless they suffer some trauma - which can be even minimal.  It is due to the a lumber vertebrae not being "in -line" and actually being at somewhat a canted position and the trauma causes it to slip out of place,  Often called as having a dog's leg appearance on film.

If it is nerve and due to failure for myelin sheath formation (nerve covering), I am not aware of the literature as the mechanism for vitamin E or any vitamin which would cause remyelinzation.  


Vitamin B deficiency in human beings can caused damage to the myelin sheath, and be found in people who are true vegans and develop pernicious anemia and folic acid deficiencies.  But, I highly doubt this is the problem in horses, unless they have a metabolic disorder which prevents them from incorporating a needed vitamin or mineral in their diet.

I would sincerely appreciate receiving any references to scientific literature regarding this condition.   Those of us who have had horses with this problem seemed to recognize it only when we have reference to other breeders who know about the condition and rarely from a veterinarian since, few have seen this, if at all.

Lorriee

Hi Lorriee, it is funny that you mention the vita. B and Folic acid. I have Fibromyalgea and other problems with my legs, I take B12 and Folic acid every night before bed and over time it really has helped me alot. So there might be something behind all that.  

[chiron]

Pam, Cookies, you say.  Me love'm cookies.  Wish I could be there.    


 cookiekiki2.jpg   19.82K   0 downloads

[Baraka]

Demelza, on May 28 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

Lisa's (SZED) thoughts were based on an assumption the condition is autosomal recessive, which means there has to be other bloodlines involved to have affected horses, since not all affected were the result of linebreeding or inbreeding to the family. What are your thoughts on this?

Some years back, some very knowledgable breeders told me there was strong speculation that a drug El Bataa had been given in Egypt for an injury, may have changed her DNA.  That would answer why she and her get seems to be isolated.

What do you geneticist know about the possibility of this happening, and being sex related?

[Seglavi]

chiron, on May 28 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Pam, Cookies, you say.  Me love'm cookies.  Wish I could be there.    


cookiekiki2.jpg

Oh Chiron, that kitten is just toooo adoreable!  Wish you could join us at the EE, I have about 250 cookies baked and one more go at it to get another 12 dozen tomorrow. Should hold us.  
Funny thing though, the neighbor kids must be smelling the "fumes" because they have happened by more in the last two afternoons than in many, many months.  Of course there are enough for everyone so they go home happy and with a plate full for their Moms.

[LMG]

I don't want to beat a dead horse (sorry, I couldn't help myself), but does anyone know of any necropsies that were done on these horses, with definitive pathological tissue or bone findings.?

Lorriee

[chiron]

Lorriee, I've asked that too.  Especially the mare belonging to Judi Parks (from the ABN side) read her story over on theedarkside.  So far seems to be NO, no necropsy.

BARAKA...I'm going to presume that there was a DNA change of some sort, man induced or natural mutation.  But you would have to move it back to Medallela, I think.  As I posted over theere, Medallela had 10 foals.  4 sons (no progeny) the mare Halawa (1 foal, didn't breed), Wanisa (2 foals, a colt with no get & the very prolific Moniet el Nefous) & El Bataa with 9 foals (4 sons, did not breed) a daughter Sihan (1 foal, did not breed) & the 3 sisters who came to the US.  It is kinda interesting to see that NOT ONE of the sons or grandsons of Medallela got any recorded get.    Maybe just one of those things OR.........
Often wondered if maybe people chose to    look the other way with the BeBop because the line was so good at producing Black?????    PLUS, most of them just oozed type &  a very sweet & gentle nature.  Another Dunno...

[abbasiyah]

chiron, on May 28 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

Lorriee, I've asked that too.  Especially the mare belonging to Judi Parks (from the ABN side) read her story over on theedarkside.  So far seems to be NO, no necropsy.

BARAKA...I'm going to presume that there was a DNA change of some sort, man induced or natural mutation.  But you would have to move it back to Medallela, I think.  As I posted over theere, Medallela had 10 foals.  4 sons (no progeny) the mare Halawa (1 foal, didn't breed), Wanisa (2 foals, a colt with no get & the very prolific Moniet el Nefous) & El Bataa with 9 foals (4 sons, did not breed) a daughter Sihan (1 foal, did not breed) & the 3 sisters who came to the US.  It is kinda interesting to see that NOT ONE of the sons or grandsons of Medallela got any recorded get.    Maybe just one of those things OR.........
Often wondered if maybe people chose to    look the other way with the BeBop because the line was so good at producing Black?????    PLUS, most of them just oozed type &  a very sweet & gentle nature.  Another Dunno...

Sorry guys but we did not do a necropsy on Ansata Sakkara but I would be happy to discuss her and any other BEB and ABN problems that we encountered.  Just ask away...

Have to run so tomorrow is the earliest that I can reply.

[chiron]

OH, yes, please do Judi.  Whenever you have to time to tell I;ve the time to listen & learn.

[curly02]

I started that BEB thread originally over on the My Kingdom site and since we owned Kazmeen Ibn Shiko, a Shiko Ibn Sheikh son who exhibited absolutey zero of that trait and he even excelled at dressage and won liberty classes at Region III. None of his foals have any issues either. According to chiron it is not sex linked and I think I had been told that before. I had also heard that early injections of Vitamin E and B12 IM, tends to correct that problem but like Lorriee I am not convinced that it is ultimately a final solution.  I am also not convinced that it is skeletal and neurological in the hind end. My feeling is that is like a crossfire in the area of the brain that coordinates movement in the hind end and thus cannot adequately control the hind end nor coordinate the front with the rear to create the balance required to maintain a steady gait.....But of course that is merely a guess. I am also not convinced that a medicine administered in Egypt would mutate her DNA. If it is a mutation it is also a hard sell since mutations happen in the male at a much higher frequency than the female ( not that that cannot be the case)  so it is, in my opinion a real mystery to be solved by those much more educated than I will ever be..... . In any case my original intent was to find out if Male horses with BEB in the top side were still producing it after a few generations....
What we have to realize is that we no longer use these horses as a means to live so where in the desert many of these issues were self limiting, we do our darndest to keep them alive and some of us allow them to reproduce, simply because we are not adequately informed.  
Just my humblest of opinions...

[chiron]

I think that sometimes the saddest part of full disclosure is that some people do not take the time to read & really understand what is being said.  I don't think any of us understand the mode of inheritance of the BeBop.  But what needs to be made VERY, VERY clear is NOT ALL of the BeB's or BintE eB's had or produced the problem.  Case in point is Joe's lovely Kazmeen.  Shiko was a DIRECT son of BeB but apparently DID NOT HAVE or PRODUCE any problems.
So as my grandma would say.....Be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Just educate yourself & train your eye & use this precious blood wisely.  
   Drinks all around...  

[Kaitiaki]

I am interested to read this discussion (and the information on the other forum too). I have not heard of this condition occurring in any Australian horses. So I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows of this condition occurring in any Australian horses.

A couple of good mares I have seen recently trace in tail female to Rafter G Charisma. Rafter G Charisma was by Ansata El Salim out of Faaraa (Faarad x Bint El Bataa). So in theory, these mares are prime candidates for this characteristic to manifest. 2 mares have Bint El Bataa back 4 generations and have no other line to Medallela. The other mare has BEB 5 generations back and also has Moniet El Nefous back 4 generations on her sire's side (not tail female).

These mares are just a handful of the many descendants of Rafter G Charisma. I haven't heard of any of them having any of the BEB hop issues, but I am interested to learn more since it has been known to pass on for that many generations, especially if doubled up.

Another Australian horse that traced to Bint El Bataa was Simeon Safanad. Her sire Sankt George was by Ansata El Salim out of Bint El Bataa herself. So Simeon Safanad was not tail female to BEB (her dam was 27 Ibn Galal V). Simeon Safanad produced many GREAT horses: Shai, Sadik, Stav, Solomon, etc. I have not heard of any of these horses having any BEB hop issues either.

However, from what chiron has said here, it seems a full brother to Sankt George demonstrated the condition... is that correct? If that is so, then one horse can inherit/manifest it, and his full brother may not. A bit of insight into the inheritance pattern perhaps?

All very interesting information. Anyone in Australia experienced anything like this with any BEB lines?

[diane]

Kaitiaki, on May 29 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

You won't hear about it.  Seeing is believing.

[Seglavi]

Diane is absolutely right about that.  And using the sons on non-El Bataa tail females will not produce the ataxia.  I must qualify that by saying we did get very slight ataxia in foals by our stallion (TF *BEB) out of a domestic, tail female Seglavi mare.  She was totally unrelated however. Their gaits were pretty rough to ride, especially the canter. This mare never produced any other symptomatic foals sired by different SE stallions. I would not hesitate to use a *BEB stallion over a non-*BEB mare, especially if he was a superior horse in other ways. It just doesn't seem to pass on from the sons like it does through the daughters and the group has many wonderful traits.

[Kaitiaki]

Okay, can I clarify? Are we saying that (ideally)?:

Symptomatic BEB-TF stallions should not be bred.
Asymptomatic BEB-TF stallions should only be bred to non-BEB mares.
Any resulting foals WILL NOT be BEB-TF.

Symptomatic BEB-TF mares should not be bred.
Asymptomatic BEB-TF mares should only be bred to non-BEB stallions.
Any resulting foals WILL be BEB-TF.

How long does this need to be done? How many generations?

I mean, any fillies produced by BEB-TF mares will also be BEB-TF. The only way to produce a foal that is non-BEB-TF from a BEB-TF horse is if that horse is a stallion. If we are trying to incorporate lines that are currently BEB-TF... but we don't want the resulting foal to be BEB-TF... well we can only use stallions from those lines. Which is going to reduce the number of horses that can be used to less than 50% (50% it's a colt, ?% it will be stallion-quality).

Do you see my question? How long are BEB-TF mares going to need to be monitored? Can asymptomatic mares produce symptomatic offspring? I would be nervous of breeding an (asymptomatic) BEB-TF mare if I thought I might produce a symptomatic foal.

[LMG]

It appears that although we have seen the expression of the problem, absent any postmortem  investigation, we really don't know what the actual pathology is, and even attempting to breed animals within this group is mere speculation.

There is a good amount of anecdotal information, and to some extent that should probably be collected and submitted to a veterinary school as a potential study for someone wanting to make their name in the literature.   There are some breeders of these horses that have been around quite awhile, whom I personally don't know and would be hesitant to ask their opinions as an outsider, but others do know them and it might be beneficial to get there observations regarding breeding these lines.  The major reason for doing so, is to try and see if we can continue these lines as we are becoming more and more concentrated in the others, without bringing defective young animals into the world.

Lorriee