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#21 LMG

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 04:25 PM

I do agree, but I did see him in motion as a younger horse, and still was less impressed than I thought I would be. This is not to say that unimpressive stallions will be unimpressive sires and tremendously impressive stallions will reproduce themselves in the stud. It is only to comment on the fact that during that time, many people did not have the opportunity or time to go see some of these imports and they (the horses) were "sold" by very good and professional photography which may have made the horse look a lot better than he did in flesh.

I viewed the movie of him and given the fact that he was an much older horse at that time, there are still things I would not have liked in him as a breeding stallion, which included the length of back (even with the respecting of age) this would not have changed, nor the pelvic attachment.

I have seen descendants of his, which were more closely coupled, and I found more attractive than the old horse, but this is a matter of taste and everyone has their own ideas of beauty, function, etc. Somethings are neither right nor wrong, merely variations on themes.

In no way, do I intend to denigrate him from the standpoint of his pedigree and his contribution to the genetic pool. But, I do think, in terms what was imported at the time, that flashy was the selling point and his quiet demeanor and less "bling" may have decreased his use. Without looking at the database, it is hard to tell, because so many horses were used a great deal and are hardly found in today's pedigrees for all sorts of reasons - economic downturns being only one of the reasons.

Lorriee

#22 NAF

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 04:33 PM

Well, I have to disagree with you , if you actually measure the back, it is not long. It is the underline that is long just like Ibn Hafiza, Tammen, to name a couple , there are more I am sure but none that anyone would know, like my mare, her back is not long, it is her underline. Jan

#23 wyndski

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:55 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the picture in the lower left corner dosen't show Tuhotmos. As far as I know, this would be a picture of his grandson Malik el Nil (Idrees x Hania). :roflmao:
Regards

Sandra


It seems you are right.
:roflmao: I do not even know where I got one, but it was labeled *Tuhotmos wherever it was. I deleted it so that it does confuse anyone.
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#24 Lil Buddha

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 02:28 PM

After all the photographs of him, I stopped at Lowes while coming back from getting a trailer in Wisconsin. He was turned out, and was a bit disappointing. A not very large, bay horse, who was pleasant in disposition. After all the hoopla in advertising, I expected to see a horse which would knock my socks off and he did not. I'm sure, that had he been in a paddock somewhere and there were several other stallions also in the same area, he could have been easily overlooked...I did see him in motion as a younger horse, and still was less impressed than I thought I would be. This is not to say that unimpressive stallions will be unimpressive sires and tremendously impressive stallions will reproduce themselves in the stud. It is only to comment on the fact that during that time, many people did not have the opportunity or time to go see some of these imports and they (the horses) were "sold" by very good and professional photography which may have made the horse look a lot better than he did in flesh....I viewed the movie of him and given the fact that he was an much older horse at that time, there are still things I would not have liked in him as a breeding stallion, which included the length of back (even with the respecting of age) this would not have changed, nor the pelvic attachment....I have seen descendants of his, which were more closely coupled, and I found more attractive than the old horse, but this is a matter of taste and everyone has their own ideas of beauty, function, etc. Somethings are neither right nor wrong, merely variations on themes...In no way, do I intend to denigrate him from the standpoint of his pedigree and his contribution to the genetic pool. But, I do think, in terms what was imported at the time, that flashy was the selling point and his quiet demeanor and less "bling" may have decreased his use. Without looking at the database, it is hard to tell, because so many horses were used a great deal and are hardly found in today's pedigrees for all sorts of reasons - economic downturns being only one of the reasons.

Lorriee


Well Lorriee, I have to tell you that I don't agree with what you said about *Tuhotmos. I saw *Tuhotmos and I was blown away by him and I am a rider, very tuned in to the functional conformation and good movement which allows a horse to do some really amazing things. Remember Ansata El Wazir? He was a *Tuhotmos son. This horse could and would do anything, before there was a revolution in horsemanship, Pat Parelli and all we know about today. I thought he was awesome. *Tuhotmos was quietly dramatic and could reduce you to overwhelming tears in an instant. His personality was so powerful, not in the way that you would expect a stallion to act, he was very perceptive and very people-oriented, in terms of picking up your thoughts and your feelings. He was an tune horse. He just knew what was in your head. Ask Karen Kasper, she knows this too. *Tuhotmos was one of those horses who you appreciated more and more, the longer you were with him. And the more you were with him, the more you noticed his elegance and his quality, had you missed it when you firat visited him. He wasn't exotic quite in the way that a *Morafic or a *Farazdac was exotic, however, his very dry look accentuated some of the most awesome facial bone structure that I have ever seen in a horse. As a sire, *Tuhotmos wasn't a good match for everything out there and I really don't believe that he received as much opportunity, as the more popular horses of the day. It is unfair to judge him as a sire, by some of these crosses. Maybe breeding him to Babson lines was not such a good idea (too close Ibn Rabdan perhaps?) but the crosses with heavy Ansata lines, meaning *Ibn Halima were some of the best. What would have happened if he bred some of the *Ansata Bint Misrs or *Ansata Bint Bukras? I just met a *Tuhotmos-influenced mare at Caryn Rogosky's farm and she has one of the best top-lines that I have EVER seen on any Arabian Horse. Had people experimented with him more, instead of concentrating on breeding more marketable horses, we would have more opportunities today and be enjoying breath-taking horses, who would be alive from these opportunities. I think the mistake in judging horses, is that we either go by what we see in front of us or we either go by what we see in paper, neither of which makes a complete picture. I just wish we were as balanced as the horses in our appraisals, instead of chopping them up into bits and pieces. I want my horses to be powerful companions, to be horses that I am mentally in tune with and to have a reciprocal relationship. They respect me, as much as I respect them. There aren't many horses around that fill this requiremnt. I loved *Tuhotmos because of this. :lol2:
Ralph

#25 LMG

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 03:50 PM

The assumption that a single criticism in a whole of an opinion is the total sum of that opinion, leads to misunderstanding. I reread my posts, and I do believe that I said that I saw descendants of *Tut that I liked and that I felt were more closely coupled than he was (although there is a difference of opinion there also) and I also said that I thought horses with more "bling" got better access to mares (or words to that effect.)

This is what leads to the desire not to comment, since responses tend to be taken personally, rather than as merely an opinon. I like Jackson Pollock, (spl) others do not. We see different things from different standpoints, and that is what makes it a horse race. How would one judge a horse one would choose for a breeding animal, if not by the animal in front of you, the offspring and the pedigree? Especially in Arabians which, for the most part, are not tested in any way.

It is true that less impressive horses sometimes are fantastic sires and sometimes tremendously impressive horses are duds in the breeding shed - probably more often than one thinks, it is just that the less impressive stallion doesn't get the same chances. Believe me, I've bred to some that knocked my socks off, one being Abenhetep. I send a lovely double *Morafic mare to him in Washington. The colt was such a disaster, I didn't register him and sold him for $400. This does not mean that Abenhetep was a bad sire, nor would I suggest that people not use him, at that time (I guess I'm going to get some outraged Tammen statements now), it was just a bad nick. These things happen more often than not, otherwise every SE that hit the ground would be a World Champion, no matter how creative the judging.

If we judge stallions by giving them only certain mares that nick with them, then it means that they are stallions which only nick with certain mares, and nothing more or less than that. Homer Watson thought Fabah was not a good sire (he told me so) when I saw the old horse at Babsons and was so impressed I wanted a son of his. Now today, Fabah has had a comeback through his daughters. So sometimes, even those who have the education, experience and training are still biased by their personal perceptions, they are not wrong, they just see things differently. And, since we have not much opportunity to test Arabians other than horse shows and most don't give a darn about the one thing Arabians do well, endurance, every opinion is just that, opinion and not a set of objective data which can be compared with another set of objective data (such as race records) to make a decision regarding breeding.

Better sires and dams, do seem to have get or produce that are good no matter what they are bred to, of course with exception, and that does get to be known in a breeding community.

Would I breed to a horse with *Tut in it's pedigree? Of course, with all things being equal. However, the query was if whether people had seen the horse and their personal opinion. Since ours differed it does not mean, that either were right or wrong. merely that we disagreed about our visual experience.

(and I still have soft spot in my heart for you, Ralphie)

Lorriee

#26 AA Wish

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 08:19 PM

Thanks everyone for your comments and pictures of Tuhotmos. I'm not an SE breeder - just happen to have picked up Ala Amin Mareekh, a Tuhotmos grandson, because I liked his powerful movement. I couldn't find out much about him. It was very interesting reading the first hand accounts. Thanks.

I'm really enjoying this forum....lots of good down to earth discussion.
Julee

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#27 Zomorroda

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 10:46 PM

Any wisdom in regards to this boy?
My mare is out of a Tuhotmos granddaughter and is a similar mover - without the lameness - and holds herself a lot like him. She and her colt also have that Tuhotmos "bump" in the butt that Hansi referred to in another thread. It isn't unsightly - just something you take notice of when you see it in a mother / son pair.


... could you please explain a bit more about this Tuhotmos 'bump in the butt' I have a grand grand daughter of Tuhotmos and would like to know abot this special 'butt' ... thank you very much
Sabine

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#28 Lil Buddha

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:48 AM

The assumption that a single criticism in a whole of an opinion is the total sum of that opinion, leads to misunderstanding.....This is what leads to the desire not to comment, since responses tend to be taken personally, rather than as merely an opinon.
(and I still have soft spot in my heart for you, Ralphie)

Lorriee



Hi Lorriee:

I think it is important that everyone feels comfortable in stating their opinion. Like you said, this is not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of perspective. In my reply to you, I did not say you were wrong, I said that I don't agree with what you stated, that's all.

When you posted the following, I was dumfounded that you would make such a statement:

Here is the perfect example how exceptional photography can create an image which is not borne up in the living animal, and a cautionary tale to those who used old photographs as supporting evidence of something or other.


Were you referring to the Robert Vavra photo? Because frankly, I have not seen a single photo, ever, that captured *Tuhotmos, as he really was. Like I said, there were horses of his time that would have made *Tuhotmos appear "plain" at first glance, that is, if the horses were side-by-side, however, *Tuhotmos, if you really looked at him, had a fine quality, an elegance, a desert dryness, a timeless feel of antiquity...there was no mistaking that you were in the company of a really special horse.

Many of the reasons why I would want to breed to *Tuhotmos, were he still alive, had nothing to do with conformation, structure or many of the reasons that you offered as to why you were not impressed with the horse. The reasons to breed to *Tuhotmos were for other qualities and most people who met *Tuhotmos would know what I am referring to.

I respect your experience and the knowledge that a lifetime has blessed you with but I just could not remain silent and not share my perspective, which is completely different than yours.

I too have a soft spot for you Lorriee and we are friends. Hope you understand.

Ralph

#29 VanAlma

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:24 AM

... could you please explain a bit more about this Tuhotmos 'bump in the butt' I have a grand grand daughter of Tuhotmos and would like to know abot this special 'butt' ... thank you very much


I will try to explain what I have seen personally, but am not sure I'll be able to put it into words well. In between the peak and the tail there is a small bump. It isn't pronounced like a tumor nor long and rolling like a hill. If you run your hand down the tailbone you can feel it and you can see it at times, but not always. When I read Hansi's comment about the "Tuhotmos bump" on another thread - can't remember which one - I went out to my barn and there is was with both mama and baby! It isn't obvious and I wouldn't consider it a flaw but, if I read her comment correctly, more like a trademark. My mare is a Tuhotmos granddaughter and, of course, her son is even further removed and neither have more than 1 cross to Tuhotmos. I will see if I can dig out any pics that might show it.

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#30 Zomorroda

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:07 AM

I will try to explain what I have seen personally, but am not sure I'll be able to put it into words well. In between the peak and the tail there is a small bump. It isn't pronounced like a tumor nor long and rolling like a hill. If you run your hand down the tailbone you can feel it and you can see it at times, but not always. When I read Hansi's comment about the "Tuhotmos bump" on another thread - can't remember which one - I went out to my barn and there is was with both mama and baby! It isn't obvious and I wouldn't consider it a flaw but, if I read her comment correctly, more like a trademark. My mare is a Tuhotmos granddaughter and, of course, her son is even further removed and neither have more than 1 cross to Tuhotmos. I will see if I can dig out any pics that might show it.


Thank you ver much Kate it would be great to see some photos of this special trademark :-)
Sabine

proudly owned by the three Straight Egyptian mares
Zomorroda Aal Hanafi (*2001 Khaled Sqr. x Helwa (Gad Allah x Arzak)) - imported from Egypt
Ghazaleh SH (* 2011 KP Maryoom x Zomorroda Aal Hanafi)
Har Karima (* 2005 NK Ibn Leyl x Kalifa El Nile)
and my wonderful White Shepherd
LUG

#31 Oliver

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:31 PM

I can understand that someone felt a little disappointed when meeting Tuhtmos after seeing the photos taken by Polly Knoll of him. It is a bit like seeing a picure of an actress in a magazine with make-up and lighting and retouching and finally see her walking down the street when she looks like any other pretty woman next door. It was the same with me when I saw Tuhotmos the very first time in the flesh. No horse looks everytime like the one perfect moment that is captured on film.
Tuhotmos was a rather small horse with a short croup, rather short legs, not very much refined and not a bit like his dam, neither in type nor in the body. He did not resemble his brother Ibn Moniet El Nefous, Soufian, or Ameer in any way, he was totally different, stamped from his sire's side. I was not impressed with his movement either. However, his disposition was flawless and he was a beautiful horse. His head though not dishy, was very dry, very noble, like etched from a stone. I liked the way he carried himself and the shape of his neck. I just saw one single good son of him but many very nice daughters who even outproduced themselves.

#32 Rosi Straub

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:04 PM

Oliver ist da :68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn:
http://www.gestuet-antar.de/
e-Mail: straub.rosiralf@freenet.de

#33 Jill C

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 01:23 PM

So happy to have you Oliver!! :68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn: I have always loved reading your thoughts and thank you so much for contributing your knowledge.

:th_cheer:

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#34 Lil Buddha

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:19 PM

"...He did not resemble his brother Ibn Moniet El Nefous, Soufian, or Ameer in any way, he was totally different, stamped from his sire's side..."


Oliver: I never really believed in color genetics but in the case of *Tuhotmos, I really see color identifying the influence of ancestral horses. The bay-colored *Tuhotmos horses generally speaking are reminiscent in phenotype to Ibn Rabdan or even Kazmeen, while the chestnut *Tuhotmos are very Moniet el Nefous. While the gray-colored *Tuhotmos are striking for Shahloul or Sheikh el Arab, depending on the level of typiness of the horse. Just an observation, nothing set in stone (everyone sees it differently) but something I have noticed over the years.

It is good to "see" you by the way. Hope all is well.

Ralph

#35 NAF

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 02:42 PM

:68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn: Oliver, Jan

#36 Ray

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

It's great to have your thoughts, Oliver - thanks!

My 2-cents worth - based on the photos, the back of Tuhotmos does not appear to be long. But then he does not appear to be a smallish horse, either. So it's just hard to make accurate judgments from from photos - although I do like what I can see of him. I just have to keep reminding myself of something, which is: from a breeder perspective it is the production that really matters and not what the individual looks like. A "for instance" with regard to size (that I know of) would be Hansi's Serenity Aristu. If I remember correctly, he was 14.2 hh - but sired consistently over 15 hh and some over 16hh.

#37 Lil Buddha

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 03:16 PM

This is the beautiful Jazelle, a mare bred by my friend, Caryn Rogosky. The sire of this mare is Halim el Mansour, an *Ansata Ibn Halima son. The dam of this mare is very relevant to this discussion. Her name is WK Elsaria Moniet. Her sire is El Mon Moniet, a *Tuhotmos son, out of a *Tuhotmos daughter. Her dam is Ghazalaa Tu, a *Tuhotmos daughter, out of Bint Ghazalaah, a mare imported to America by Gleannloch Farm.

Jazelle is one of the most beautiful mares that I have ever seen. Her topline is one of the best toplines that I have ever seen. She is tall, she is leggy, she has a lot of substance, her neck is just one of the most wonderful necks that I have ever seen with a roomy, clean throatlatch. The mare is a phenomenal riding horse. There is nothing that she won't do or try. She has an incredible disposition. Jazelle is Caryn Rogosky's masterpiece and a living testament to the personal excellence of her breeder.

In addition to the 3 lines to *Tuhotmos, this mare has 5 lines, including her tail female line to Farida.

There is no bump, by the way (on this mare)

Ralph

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#38 Trish aka JMO

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:53 PM

Nice mare....do you have any more photos to share ??

#39 AA Wish

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:56 PM

So glad you posted that picture of Jazelle...that's the type of mare I had been envisioning as I plod along in my search for a wife for King Tut. I've been looking for that higher placement of neck and almost wondered if it was gone from the arabian horse. She's a beautiful girl.
Julee

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#40 diane

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 01:37 AM

Here is the perfect example how exceptional photography can create an image which is not borne up in the living animal, and a cautionary tale to those who used old photographs as supporting evidence of something or other.

Lorriee

Lorriee, was there to be a picture here? muzzy head, reading through, I imagine you are referring to his photos in general?
cheers, diane
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